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Good evening and welcome to the 10th

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Annual Ron McCallum debate on industrial

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Relations.

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I'm james fleming. I'm the executive

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director of the Australian Institute of

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Employment Rights

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and it's my great pleasure to introduce

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the debate and tell you about tonight's

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Program.

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I'd like to begin by acknowledging the

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traditional custodians of the land on

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which we meet today

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and to pay my respects to their elders

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past and present

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the aim of the australian institute of

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employment rights is to promote

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international

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and fundamental labour standards as well

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as tripartism and dialogue in the public

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interest

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so we're very pleased to host this

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public debate tonight and on such a

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timely issue

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our topic tonight as you know is labor

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relations and pandemics

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past present future debate is being

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hosted from a studio in sydney

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with people patching in from around

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australia around the world and i'm

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pleased to say we've got quite a program

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for you

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so firstly we're going to play a short

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film that we made for the debate based

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on my interview with greg vines

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greg is deputy director general of the

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international labour organization

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and he's going to give a bit of a global

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and ilo perspective on our topic

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after the film will cross to greg live

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from geneva

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greg's on the line now and standing by

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hello greg and welcome to the debate

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hi james how are you and it's great to

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be here thanks

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great so then you're going to hear from

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our patron

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um emeritus professor Ron McCallum.

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Ron is one of australia's most respected

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labor law experts

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and this debate is held every year in

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his honor

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ron is a much loved teacher an

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inspiration to many and as you'll hear

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later tonight he's a really engaging

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speaker

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ron is also the first totally blind

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person to have been appointed to a full

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professorship in any field at any

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university in australia or new zealand

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his achievements are just too numerous

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to list here in full

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he's held several professorships and was

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appointed

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emeritus professor at sydney law school

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in 2011

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he's been invited to teach in canada in

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the united states he's a past

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chair of the united nations committee on

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the rights of persons with disabilities

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in 2006 he was made an officer of the

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order of australia

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and in 2011 he was named senior

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australian of the year

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ron will be giving a short historical

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perspective on our topic

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before the main debate and as usual he's

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going to give his reflections at the end

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after we have some questions from the

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audience ron is in the studio in sydney

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welcome ron and hello hello james and

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hello everyone

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it's great to be here i think this is

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the best debate

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ever and i'm truly honoured

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fantastic next i'd like to introduce

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justice ian ross

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the president of the fair work

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commission he'll be moderating the main

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debate and i'll leave it to him to

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introduce our esteemed debate panelists

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later on this evening

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on our panel we've got leaders from

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australia's main business organizations

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and the trade union movement

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as well as academic experts good evening

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justice ross how are you

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good evening james thanks very much i'm

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looking forward to it

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thanks so we've got over 700 people

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registered in our audience tonight which

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is fantastic

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and looking at that list it's a really

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good cross-section of our industrial

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relations community

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greetings to all of you from the

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judiciary past and present members of

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the fair work commission

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the legal profession and academia i can

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see many from government unions and

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business

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welcome also to the media students and

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members of the public

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joining us here tonight now if you don't

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have it already you'll see in the

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resources section next to the live feed

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that you can download the background

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briefing paper for

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further information about our speakers

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and also the issues of the debate

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and you can follow along there's also a

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chat function

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right there under the live live feed

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window so you can pose

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questions during the debate and we'll

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deal with some of these towards the end

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now a quick word about the format of our

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main debate tonight

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so we're following a new format this

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year in the main debate

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each of our eight panelists will first

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be given three minutes

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to talk to the topic covert 19 has

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shaken up the whole world

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where to next for ir in australia

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after their speeches justice ross will

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moderate the debate on the following

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topic

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what is the impact of the covert 19

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pandemic on work

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employment and labor relations both

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globally and locally

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and what impetus and opportunity does it

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present for reform

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now we had invited both the minister for

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industrial relations

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christian porter and his counterpart the

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shadow minister tony burke

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to be part of that panel but

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unfortunately the minister sends his

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apologies

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and was unable to attend due to other

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commitments

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hence to preserve the balance of the

0:04:29.680,0:04:33.919
debate we ask the shadow minister to

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withdraw which is graciously done

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you can hear from the shadow minister

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however and other commentators on this

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topic

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and and many other industrial relations

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topic in our new podcast series

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that we're launching later in the year

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and we'll keep you posted on that

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i'd like to thank our sponsors harma's

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workplace lawyers for their generous

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support in making this debate possible

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and without further ado we'll now play

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the short film and then hand over to

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greg bynes

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thank you

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[Music]

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my name's greg vines i'm the deputy

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director general

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of the international labour organisation

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as you can probably tell from my voice

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i'm australian and

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it's great to be able to participate in

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this in this australian event

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the ilo based here in geneva is playing

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a central role

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around all of the aspects of covert 19.

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we've got about 3 000 staff we've got 60

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offices around the world

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and all of us are just flat out

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at the moment in the world almost 400

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000 seafarers

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are currently stuck on ships many of

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them have been on those ships for up to

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18 months because they can't get off

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because of port closures because of

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quarantine arrangements

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94 of workers worldwide are in countries

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that

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have some form of workplace closures the

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working hours that were lost in the

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second quarter of this year

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are the equivalent of almost 500 million

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full-time jobs

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extraordinary figures global incomes

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have been estimated to have declined by

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around 10.7

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that's the equivalent of 3.5 trillion

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u.s dollars

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five and a half percent of global global

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gdp

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the worst aspect of all of this is that

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this is people we're talking about

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and the ones who are hit hardest are in

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most cases the most vulnerable people

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we're seeing a disproportionate impact

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on

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informal workers on women on young

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people

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and not a lot of confidence that it's

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going to improve in the short term

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unfortunately this isn't the first time

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the ilo has had to deal with pandemics

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and crises indeed

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i think we could look almost every year

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and there's a there's an earthquake

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there's a tsunami there's

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a refugee issue there's economic crises

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i think the ambition of the decent work

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agenda

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needs to be scaled up not scaled back

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there are some obvious gaps that we are

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seeing in many many

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countries gaps in provisions around

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social protection

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such as paid leave appropriate sick

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leave

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and what we are seeing too often is that

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people who

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are unwell are going to work and this of

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course

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has a dramatic impact on those

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workplaces we're seeing people in the

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informal economy

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who if they don't work one day they

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don't eat that day

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we don't want to end up with the

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vulnerabilities the inequalities the

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gaps

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that we're pre-existing which have

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become worse during the pandemic

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we can't allow the recovery to make them

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even

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worse still there's got to be

0:07:44.160,0:07:47.440
an unprecedented level of investment in

0:07:46.800,0:07:50.080
employment

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in creating proper decent jobs for

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people that includes

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addressing the issues around the

0:07:52.879,0:07:58.319
informal economy around the gig economy

0:07:55.280,0:07:59.440
providing proper protections for for

0:07:58.319,0:08:02.319
workers and the like

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and so our number one message is the

0:08:02.319,0:08:06.000
importance of

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of social dialogue being that mechanism

0:08:06.000,0:08:11.440
where governments workers and employers

0:08:08.479,0:08:13.919
sit down work through all of the labor

0:08:11.440,0:08:16.160
market and social economic issues

0:08:13.919,0:08:17.199
on a tripartite basis to try and find

0:08:16.160,0:08:19.120
solutions

0:08:17.199,0:08:21.120
uh to the pressing problems that the

0:08:19.120,0:08:23.680
world faces

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the fact that the australian government

0:08:23.680,0:08:26.720
brought together

0:08:24.479,0:08:28.319
the representatives of the trade unions

0:08:26.720,0:08:32.159
of the actu

0:08:28.319,0:08:34.399
and the major employers was one of the

0:08:32.159,0:08:36.320
real hallmarks of the success of the

0:08:34.399,0:08:38.719
early response to the pandemic

0:08:36.320,0:08:42.159
our encouragement to australia would be

0:08:38.719,0:08:42.159
to continue that process

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the only criticism i would make is that

0:08:45.120,0:08:50.080
the developing countries in the world

0:08:47.120,0:08:51.360
are really really suffering they've not

0:08:50.080,0:08:53.200
got the resources

0:08:51.360,0:08:54.800
to bring in the sorts of measure

0:08:53.200,0:08:55.920
measures that the australian government

0:08:54.800,0:08:58.160
have been able to do

0:08:55.920,0:08:59.200
and so there's got to be a much much

0:08:58.160,0:09:02.000
stronger level

0:08:59.200,0:09:04.800
of global solidarity in addressing this

0:09:02.000,0:09:09.839
if we do want to have a bright future

0:09:04.800,0:09:09.839
in the short to medium term

0:09:12.750,0:09:18.320
[Music]

0:09:16.399,0:09:22.560
hello and now i'll hand over to greg

0:09:18.320,0:09:24.480
bynes at the ilo in geneva many thanks

0:09:22.560,0:09:25.360
james and it's really a great pleasure

0:09:24.480,0:09:28.000
to be joining you

0:09:25.360,0:09:30.080
today from geneva and certainly a great

0:09:28.000,0:09:33.120
honor to be introducing the annual

0:09:30.080,0:09:35.600
Ron McCallum debate we're only 10 months

0:09:33.120,0:09:36.480
into the covert 19 pane epidemic and

0:09:35.600,0:09:38.320
already

0:09:36.480,0:09:39.600
the world has lost the equivalent of 500

0:09:38.320,0:09:41.920
million jobs

0:09:39.600,0:09:42.800
income losses of 7 million 7 trillion

0:09:41.920,0:09:44.399
dollars

0:09:42.800,0:09:46.720
and what we're seeing are worsening

0:09:44.399,0:09:48.000
inequalities and increased poverty right

0:09:46.720,0:09:50.480
around the world

0:09:48.000,0:09:51.440
without any doubt the pandemic has

0:09:50.480,0:09:54.480
exacerbated

0:09:51.440,0:09:55.760
what were pre-existing inequalities

0:09:54.480,0:09:57.360
women have particularly been

0:09:55.760,0:09:58.480
disadvantaged because of their

0:09:57.360,0:10:00.720
concentration

0:09:58.480,0:10:02.320
in some of the worst affected sectors

0:10:00.720,0:10:04.800
and by the added burden

0:10:02.320,0:10:06.800
of care responsibilities as schools and

0:10:04.800,0:10:09.519
facilities have closed

0:10:06.800,0:10:11.040
many of the two billion workers who are

0:10:09.519,0:10:13.120
in informal employment

0:10:11.040,0:10:15.440
as well as workers in jobs with little

0:10:13.120,0:10:17.760
protection such as temporary workers

0:10:15.440,0:10:20.720
and workers under short-term contracts

0:10:17.760,0:10:23.519
have also been particularly hard hit

0:10:20.720,0:10:25.200
in addition young people whose situation

0:10:23.519,0:10:27.120
was already tenuous

0:10:25.200,0:10:29.279
have suffered interruption of education

0:10:27.120,0:10:32.320
and training loss of employment

0:10:29.279,0:10:34.800
and blocked access to the world of work

0:10:32.320,0:10:36.800
migrant workers and domestic workers

0:10:34.800,0:10:38.240
have found themselves in situations of

0:10:36.800,0:10:40.320
great precarity

0:10:38.240,0:10:41.839
facing the prospect of forced return to

0:10:40.320,0:10:44.079
their countries of origin

0:10:41.839,0:10:45.680
or the increased danger of infection as

0:10:44.079,0:10:48.800
a result of their accommodation

0:10:45.680,0:10:51.200
and working conditions inequalities

0:10:48.800,0:10:52.959
also play out in what happens to people

0:10:51.200,0:10:54.959
when they catch the virus

0:10:52.959,0:10:56.079
while some have access to sick leave

0:10:54.959,0:10:58.480
health services

0:10:56.079,0:11:00.160
and continue to receive a salary for

0:10:58.480,0:11:03.040
many many others

0:11:00.160,0:11:04.640
the consequences of covert 19 have been

0:11:03.040,0:11:06.720
catastrophic

0:11:04.640,0:11:07.839
the reverberations of the crisis in the

0:11:06.720,0:11:10.000
world economy

0:11:07.839,0:11:11.680
are likely to be compounded by the

0:11:10.000,0:11:14.480
structural transformations

0:11:11.680,0:11:15.760
already underway driven by technology

0:11:14.480,0:11:18.959
geopolitics

0:11:15.760,0:11:20.079
ageing migration and critically climate

0:11:18.959,0:11:22.160
change

0:11:20.079,0:11:23.600
this combination of crisis and

0:11:22.160,0:11:25.760
structural pressures

0:11:23.600,0:11:27.440
could create a perfect storm of

0:11:25.760,0:11:29.760
challenges for employment

0:11:27.440,0:11:31.200
household income and other aspects of

0:11:29.760,0:11:34.480
human security

0:11:31.200,0:11:36.560
in many countries over the next decade

0:11:34.480,0:11:38.160
the inevitable consequences of all of

0:11:36.560,0:11:40.560
this is that as

0:11:38.160,0:11:42.720
and when the world begins to emerge from

0:11:40.560,0:11:44.560
the health emergency of covert

0:11:42.720,0:11:46.720
it will be in circumstances of

0:11:44.560,0:11:50.079
considerably higher unemployment

0:11:46.720,0:11:51.760
poverty inequality and social tension

0:11:50.079,0:11:53.120
than when it went into the cut into the

0:11:51.760,0:11:55.200
crisis

0:11:53.120,0:11:56.560
the world needs to find a new or at

0:11:55.200,0:11:59.600
least stronger

0:11:56.560,0:12:00.880
engine of economic recovery the longer

0:11:59.600,0:12:03.360
the pandemic lasts

0:12:00.880,0:12:05.360
the greater its disruptive force will be

0:12:03.360,0:12:07.200
on the fundamental building blocks of

0:12:05.360,0:12:08.480
economic and social progress and

0:12:07.200,0:12:10.880
stability

0:12:08.480,0:12:12.079
that is employment for all skilling

0:12:10.880,0:12:14.399
opportunities

0:12:12.079,0:12:15.760
decent working conditions adequate

0:12:14.399,0:12:18.560
social protection

0:12:15.760,0:12:19.040
and gender equality and these are of

0:12:18.560,0:12:21.600
course

0:12:19.040,0:12:22.959
all the contributions that they bring to

0:12:21.600,0:12:25.120
productivity growth

0:12:22.959,0:12:27.360
purchasing power and consumer and

0:12:25.120,0:12:29.360
investor confidence

0:12:27.360,0:12:30.720
an extraordinary international

0:12:29.360,0:12:33.760
collective effort

0:12:30.720,0:12:36.480
from governments trade unions employers

0:12:33.760,0:12:37.680
and the multilateral system focusing

0:12:36.480,0:12:39.600
more directly on

0:12:37.680,0:12:42.399
strengthening these cornerstones of

0:12:39.600,0:12:44.959
economic strength and social cohesion

0:12:42.399,0:12:46.639
will be required if the world is to

0:12:44.959,0:12:49.760
achieve its stated ambition

0:12:46.639,0:12:51.519
of building back better and faster from

0:12:49.760,0:12:54.240
the crisis

0:12:51.519,0:12:55.760
last year for the ilo centenary the

0:12:54.240,0:12:58.160
international labor conference

0:12:55.760,0:13:00.000
adopted the centenary declaration for a

0:12:58.160,0:13:01.200
human-centred approach to the future of

0:13:00.000,0:13:03.519
work

0:13:01.200,0:13:05.440
that declaration provides a solid

0:13:03.519,0:13:06.639
framework for the socio-economic

0:13:05.440,0:13:09.279
recovery

0:13:06.639,0:13:10.079
from the pandemic the centenary

0:13:09.279,0:13:12.240
declaration

0:13:10.079,0:13:14.320
stresses the need to shape major

0:13:12.240,0:13:17.120
transitions in the world of work

0:13:14.320,0:13:18.720
digital environmental and demographic

0:13:17.120,0:13:21.600
being foremost

0:13:18.720,0:13:22.639
these transitions pre-date covered but

0:13:21.600,0:13:25.839
will remain

0:13:22.639,0:13:27.680
during and after it the overriding

0:13:25.839,0:13:30.000
responsibility of the ilo

0:13:27.680,0:13:32.079
and its member states flowing from the

0:13:30.000,0:13:33.040
organisation's mandate for social

0:13:32.079,0:13:35.040
justice

0:13:33.040,0:13:36.480
that is to improve the situation of

0:13:35.040,0:13:37.680
those who are most vulnerable and

0:13:36.480,0:13:40.000
disadvantaged

0:13:37.680,0:13:40.959
in the world of work has been brought to

0:13:40.000,0:13:43.600
the fore

0:13:40.959,0:13:46.320
in the starkest and most cruel terms by

0:13:43.600,0:13:49.199
the experience of the pandemic

0:13:46.320,0:13:51.839
in particular we need to address firstly

0:13:49.199,0:13:53.760
the formalisation of informal work

0:13:51.839,0:13:55.040
the pandemic has alerted the world to

0:13:53.760,0:13:57.519
the reality that two

0:13:55.040,0:13:59.360
out of three workers make a living in

0:13:57.519,0:14:01.920
conditions of informality

0:13:59.360,0:14:03.199
and the risks and insecurity associated

0:14:01.920,0:14:05.199
with that

0:14:03.199,0:14:06.560
secondly we need to advance a

0:14:05.199,0:14:09.760
transformative agenda

0:14:06.560,0:14:11.040
to achieve gender equality at work an

0:14:09.760,0:14:13.680
equitable recovery

0:14:11.040,0:14:15.760
must be gender responsive this will

0:14:13.680,0:14:16.560
require investment in care related

0:14:15.760,0:14:18.800
employment

0:14:16.560,0:14:20.399
infrastructure and services and

0:14:18.800,0:14:22.399
addressing the risk of violence and

0:14:20.399,0:14:24.399
harassment at work

0:14:22.399,0:14:26.320
third we need to protect and empower

0:14:24.399,0:14:28.399
disadvantaged groups

0:14:26.320,0:14:29.440
recovery from the crisis and the road to

0:14:28.399,0:14:31.360
decent work

0:14:29.440,0:14:32.800
will be harder for people in already

0:14:31.360,0:14:35.680
disadvantaged groups

0:14:32.800,0:14:36.079
or in vulnerable situations particularly

0:14:35.680,0:14:39.199
those

0:14:36.079,0:14:41.519
hit hardest by the pandemic innovative

0:14:39.199,0:14:42.639
policy making will be required to ensure

0:14:41.519,0:14:45.120
their inclusion

0:14:42.639,0:14:47.680
in post post-covert recovery programs

0:14:45.120,0:14:50.880
and particularly in the emerging sectors

0:14:47.680,0:14:52.800
in the digital and green economies we

0:14:50.880,0:14:55.199
need to also strengthen protections

0:14:52.800,0:14:56.959
across diverse forms of work

0:14:55.199,0:14:58.720
as governments have sought to provide

0:14:56.959,0:15:00.560
urgent support to enterprises and

0:14:58.720,0:15:01.440
workers affected by the fallout of

0:15:00.560,0:15:03.680
covert

0:15:01.440,0:15:05.040
they have often run up against obstacles

0:15:03.680,0:15:07.760
linked to the different

0:15:05.040,0:15:10.000
and often ambiguous status of those

0:15:07.760,0:15:11.920
engaged in different work arrangements

0:15:10.000,0:15:13.040
and the rights and benefits associated

0:15:11.920,0:15:15.279
with them

0:15:13.040,0:15:17.839
if the pandemic does result in a more

0:15:15.279,0:15:19.760
rapid extension of new work arrangements

0:15:17.839,0:15:22.240
for example in the form of remote and

0:15:19.760,0:15:24.480
gig work the need for stronger

0:15:22.240,0:15:25.600
protection and stronger international

0:15:24.480,0:15:28.720
labour standards

0:15:25.600,0:15:30.959
will become all the more pressing we

0:15:28.720,0:15:32.880
also need to address the global social

0:15:30.959,0:15:34.959
protection deficit

0:15:32.880,0:15:36.959
the pandemic has highlighted the human

0:15:34.959,0:15:39.759
consequences of a situation

0:15:36.959,0:15:41.680
in which only one in three people have

0:15:39.759,0:15:44.000
comprehensive protection

0:15:41.680,0:15:44.880
and more than half have no protection at

0:15:44.000,0:15:46.800
all

0:15:44.880,0:15:48.240
we need to accelerate the progress of

0:15:46.800,0:15:50.800
social protection

0:15:48.240,0:15:53.839
not as an ad hoc response but through

0:15:50.800,0:15:56.560
permanent rights based

0:15:53.839,0:15:58.480
and importantly we also need to address

0:15:56.560,0:16:01.759
safety and health at work

0:15:58.480,0:16:05.040
the ilo estimates that 2.3 million

0:16:01.759,0:16:06.480
people lose their lives every year as a

0:16:05.040,0:16:10.079
result of their work through

0:16:06.480,0:16:10.639
injury accident and disease by its very

0:16:10.079,0:16:13.759
nature

0:16:10.639,0:16:15.920
as a global health emergency covert 19

0:16:13.759,0:16:17.759
has made public opinion acutely aware

0:16:15.920,0:16:20.000
of the relationship between health and

0:16:17.759,0:16:21.199
work and the risks that result from

0:16:20.000,0:16:24.320
inadequate prevention

0:16:21.199,0:16:25.279
and remedial measures in confronting

0:16:24.320,0:16:27.519
these challenges

0:16:25.279,0:16:29.199
we need to ensure that responses fully

0:16:27.519,0:16:32.560
involve social partners

0:16:29.199,0:16:34.240
the trade unions and employers in many

0:16:32.560,0:16:36.000
countries the immediate response to

0:16:34.240,0:16:38.399
covert drew heavily on social

0:16:36.000,0:16:39.519
dialogue between governments unions and

0:16:38.399,0:16:41.199
employers

0:16:39.519,0:16:42.639
which proved its worth in the

0:16:41.199,0:16:45.600
development of agreed

0:16:42.639,0:16:47.360
practical social and economic measures

0:16:45.600,0:16:49.600
as the pandemic persists

0:16:47.360,0:16:51.120
and longer term policy decisions need to

0:16:49.600,0:16:53.680
be taken

0:16:51.120,0:16:56.800
all will need to re-dedicate their

0:16:53.680,0:16:58.959
efforts to this tripartite approach

0:16:56.800,0:17:00.800
the fullest extent and nature of the

0:16:58.959,0:17:03.120
economic and social crisis

0:17:00.800,0:17:04.480
relating from the pandemic still remains

0:17:03.120,0:17:06.319
unclear

0:17:04.480,0:17:09.199
there is great uncertainty about the

0:17:06.319,0:17:11.520
future trajectory of the pandemic itself

0:17:09.199,0:17:13.600
the speed of the economic rebound the

0:17:11.520,0:17:15.199
degree of permanent destruction of jobs

0:17:13.600,0:17:16.880
and enterprises

0:17:15.199,0:17:18.480
this makes projections about the

0:17:16.880,0:17:21.520
immediate future of work

0:17:18.480,0:17:23.360
more than usually difficult nevertheless

0:17:21.520,0:17:24.559
what is known is that the world is

0:17:23.360,0:17:27.919
experiencing

0:17:24.559,0:17:30.720
a dramatic and unprecedented shock

0:17:27.919,0:17:32.160
we need actions that ensure inclusive

0:17:30.720,0:17:34.080
and sustainable growth

0:17:32.160,0:17:36.000
that creates productive employment and

0:17:34.080,0:17:38.080
decent work for all

0:17:36.000,0:17:41.200
we need to facilitate lifelong learning

0:17:38.080,0:17:43.039
paths and labor market transitions

0:17:41.200,0:17:44.480
we need to foster an enabling

0:17:43.039,0:17:47.760
environment for sustainable

0:17:44.480,0:17:48.400
enterprises and importantly we need to

0:17:47.760,0:17:51.120
ensure

0:17:48.400,0:17:52.240
international resource mobilisation and

0:17:51.120,0:17:54.880
solidarity

0:17:52.240,0:17:56.720
to support all countries regardless of

0:17:54.880,0:17:59.440
their own economic capacity

0:17:56.720,0:18:01.760
to build back better the scale of

0:17:59.440,0:18:03.840
ambition of the centenary declaration

0:18:01.760,0:18:04.960
and the scale of the challenge generated

0:18:03.840,0:18:07.360
by covert

0:18:04.960,0:18:09.520
requires the ilo together with its

0:18:07.360,0:18:11.600
member states and social partners

0:18:09.520,0:18:12.799
to act with corresponding vision and

0:18:11.600,0:18:15.039
ambition

0:18:12.799,0:18:17.120
if we are to have a recovery that is a

0:18:15.039,0:18:19.200
recovery for all

0:18:17.120,0:18:21.200
i now have great pleasure in handing the

0:18:19.200,0:18:23.679
floor to emeritus professor

0:18:21.200,0:18:24.880
rhonda cullen thank you very much thank

0:18:23.679,0:18:28.160
you greg

0:18:24.880,0:18:32.880
hello again everyone contagious

0:18:28.160,0:18:35.919
diseases are part of the human condition

0:18:32.880,0:18:38.960
ever since we've been on this planet

0:18:35.919,0:18:42.640
we've lived with animals and viruses

0:18:38.960,0:18:44.960
and we have had diseases and pandemics

0:18:42.640,0:18:46.880
and when they've been going on we've had

0:18:44.960,0:18:50.559
to continue our lives

0:18:46.880,0:18:54.320
making and raising children getting food

0:18:50.559,0:18:54.320
organizing our own governance

0:18:54.799,0:19:01.520
going back in time one of the

0:18:58.640,0:19:02.000
earliest discussions of the plague is

0:19:01.520,0:19:04.880
found

0:19:02.000,0:19:05.679
in homer's iliad i rather like homer

0:19:04.880,0:19:08.320
because

0:19:05.679,0:19:10.720
it seems that he was blind and dictated

0:19:08.320,0:19:13.440
the iliad and the odyssey

0:19:10.720,0:19:14.960
you may recall in the iliad the greeks

0:19:13.440,0:19:18.880
under agamemnon

0:19:14.960,0:19:23.200
went to turkey

0:19:18.880,0:19:23.200
to troy to rescue helen

0:19:23.280,0:19:30.400
while they were on the beaches agamemnon

0:19:27.280,0:19:32.559
took a young woman and made her into his

0:19:30.400,0:19:35.679
servant and or concubine

0:19:32.559,0:19:39.039
her name was christie he said

0:19:35.679,0:19:42.880
in his words she will work the loom

0:19:39.039,0:19:43.520
and grace my couch her father who was a

0:19:42.880,0:19:48.160
priest of

0:19:43.520,0:19:51.600
apollo was upset needless to say

0:19:48.160,0:19:54.960
and so zeus sent a plague on

0:19:51.600,0:19:58.320
the greeks and after nine days of the

0:19:54.960,0:20:01.440
plague and quarrels amongst the greeks

0:19:58.320,0:20:02.480
the girl was released but it led to a

0:20:01.440,0:20:05.760
quarrel between

0:20:02.480,0:20:08.720
agamemnon and achilles

0:20:05.760,0:20:10.320
what's interesting about homer's poem in

0:20:08.720,0:20:12.559
this sense

0:20:10.320,0:20:14.000
is that it was thought that plagues came

0:20:12.559,0:20:16.240
from god

0:20:14.000,0:20:17.760
that plagues or pestilences were

0:20:16.240,0:20:20.960
supernatural

0:20:17.760,0:20:22.880
and that they they came down because the

0:20:20.960,0:20:26.880
gods were displeased

0:20:22.880,0:20:30.159
with what we as humans were doing

0:20:26.880,0:20:30.640
still the most disastrous plague was the

0:20:30.159,0:20:34.240
black

0:20:30.640,0:20:36.000
death of 1348 which

0:20:34.240,0:20:38.080
killed certainly a quarter of the

0:20:36.000,0:20:40.720
population of europe and round most of

0:20:38.080,0:20:44.080
the rest of the old world

0:20:40.720,0:20:45.280
and this black death gave rise to the

0:20:44.080,0:20:48.240
first piece

0:20:45.280,0:20:49.440
of labor relations legislation in

0:20:48.240,0:20:52.080
england

0:20:49.440,0:20:53.679
it was the statute of labor which is my

0:20:52.080,0:20:58.320
slide 1

0:20:53.679,0:21:01.440
of 1351 the black death was 1348

0:20:58.320,0:21:05.039
and this is what the statute said

0:21:01.440,0:21:08.320
because a great part of the people

0:21:05.039,0:21:11.440
and especially of the workmen

0:21:08.320,0:21:14.559
and servants has now died

0:21:11.440,0:21:17.840
in that pestilence some

0:21:14.559,0:21:20.960
seeing the straits of the masters

0:21:17.840,0:21:24.880
and the scarcity of servants are

0:21:20.960,0:21:28.799
not willing to serve unless they receive

0:21:24.880,0:21:32.000
excessive wages and others

0:21:28.799,0:21:35.120
rather than through labor to

0:21:32.000,0:21:35.120
gain the living

0:21:35.679,0:21:42.480
prefer to beg in idleness

0:21:39.840,0:21:43.280
so what did the statute say it said

0:21:42.480,0:21:46.559
everyone

0:21:43.280,0:21:50.880
under 60 who is not a craftsperson is

0:21:46.559,0:21:53.039
bound to work for pre-black death wages

0:21:50.880,0:21:54.320
in other words they sought to alter the

0:21:53.039,0:21:56.640
market forces

0:21:54.320,0:21:57.360
when there's a scarcity of workers wages

0:21:56.640,0:22:01.440
go up

0:21:57.360,0:22:03.840
they sought to alter market forces

0:22:01.440,0:22:06.000
in her book and that's my next slide on

0:22:03.840,0:22:08.880
books barbara tuchman

0:22:06.000,0:22:10.240
perhaps one of the best amateur american

0:22:08.880,0:22:12.640
historians

0:22:10.240,0:22:13.840
wrote in 1978 her wonderful book a

0:22:12.640,0:22:16.640
distant mirror

0:22:13.840,0:22:18.240
looking at the 14th century and she said

0:22:16.640,0:22:21.760
the black death arthritis

0:22:18.240,0:22:22.880
changes people thought if god can do

0:22:21.760,0:22:25.600
this

0:22:22.880,0:22:26.000
surely it does not come from god and

0:22:25.600,0:22:30.240
maybe

0:22:26.000,0:22:32.320
we must get out of a medieval mindset

0:22:30.240,0:22:33.440
the statute of labor is couldn't be

0:22:32.320,0:22:35.280
enforced

0:22:33.440,0:22:36.880
there was rampant inflation and

0:22:35.280,0:22:40.159
increased taxation

0:22:36.880,0:22:44.480
which led to the peasants revolt

0:22:40.159,0:22:47.840
what tyler and john ball

0:22:44.480,0:22:49.919
in 1381 which you may

0:22:47.840,0:22:51.760
look at if you read shakespeare's

0:22:49.919,0:22:53.919
richard ii

0:22:51.760,0:22:56.240
there were other plagues of course the

0:22:53.919,0:22:58.720
plague of 1665

0:22:56.240,0:23:00.799
that daniel defoe writes about in the

0:22:58.720,0:23:03.919
journal of the plague

0:23:00.799,0:23:05.600
that didn't stop england from flowering

0:23:03.919,0:23:07.360
after the plague and the fire the

0:23:05.600,0:23:08.240
wonderful architecture of christopher

0:23:07.360,0:23:11.280
wren

0:23:08.240,0:23:12.559
and the players of shakespeare life went

0:23:11.280,0:23:16.240
on

0:23:12.559,0:23:18.320
but the cracks in medieval society

0:23:16.240,0:23:20.960
brought about by the black death

0:23:18.320,0:23:23.360
led to mercantilism and even to the

0:23:20.960,0:23:26.400
reformation

0:23:23.360,0:23:27.840
often labor laws um are enacted because

0:23:26.400,0:23:29.919
of crises

0:23:27.840,0:23:32.400
what's striking about australia is that

0:23:29.919,0:23:35.600
we put a provision in our constitution

0:23:32.400,0:23:37.760
after labor dislocations in the 1890s

0:23:35.600,0:23:39.520
the industrial power allowing the

0:23:37.760,0:23:41.919
federal government to make laws with

0:23:39.520,0:23:43.279
respect to conciliation and arbitration

0:23:41.919,0:23:45.520
for the prevention and settlement of

0:23:43.279,0:23:47.360
industrial disputes extending beyond the

0:23:45.520,0:23:51.200
limits of any one state

0:23:47.360,0:23:54.559
that is interstate disputes

0:23:51.200,0:23:59.039
quite remarkable and

0:23:54.559,0:24:02.400
in 1918 and 1919 we had the influenza

0:23:59.039,0:24:05.039
epidemic throughout the world we lost 15

0:24:02.400,0:24:06.400
000 australians during that epidemic and

0:24:05.039,0:24:09.279
the states

0:24:06.400,0:24:10.640
and especially tasmania closed their

0:24:09.279,0:24:14.240
borders

0:24:10.640,0:24:16.000
and people wore masks well what happened

0:24:14.240,0:24:17.440
there was a dispute between engine

0:24:16.000,0:24:19.120
drivers and firemen

0:24:17.440,0:24:20.559
and various employers throughout

0:24:19.120,0:24:23.279
australia and they

0:24:20.559,0:24:25.039
all met in melbourne before justice

0:24:23.279,0:24:28.240
powers

0:24:25.039,0:24:31.279
and the dispute was settled but

0:24:28.240,0:24:34.960
because tasmania was closed

0:24:31.279,0:24:38.640
no one from tasmania could come

0:24:34.960,0:24:41.120
when the tasmanian was back

0:24:38.640,0:24:42.799
and you could get by ship to melbourne

0:24:41.120,0:24:44.400
the employer said well there's no longer

0:24:42.799,0:24:45.200
an interstate dispute it's settled

0:24:44.400,0:24:48.240
everywhere

0:24:45.200,0:24:49.760
so you have no jurisdiction it went to

0:24:48.240,0:24:51.919
the high court

0:24:49.760,0:24:52.799
and the high court really said you can't

0:24:51.919,0:24:56.000
do that

0:24:52.799,0:25:00.799
this is what justice higgins said

0:24:56.000,0:25:02.320
the absurdity is instead sufficiently

0:25:00.799,0:25:04.799
patent

0:25:02.320,0:25:06.480
in a this is a slide in the present

0:25:04.799,0:25:09.919
circumstances

0:25:06.480,0:25:12.880
for it was owing to delay caused

0:25:09.919,0:25:14.960
through the influenza epidemic that the

0:25:12.880,0:25:18.559
tasmanian case

0:25:14.960,0:25:22.559
had to be presented after the cases

0:25:18.559,0:25:25.840
for the other states i feel strongly

0:25:22.559,0:25:28.320
that it is the duty of this court

0:25:25.840,0:25:30.880
in construing such acts as the

0:25:28.320,0:25:34.080
conciliation and arbitration act

0:25:30.880,0:25:37.600
to find out the main object

0:25:34.080,0:25:41.279
which parliament had in view

0:25:37.600,0:25:45.840
and not to attribute to parliament

0:25:41.279,0:25:50.000
unless compelled by the clearest words

0:25:45.840,0:25:53.279
a meaning which involves futility

0:25:50.000,0:25:57.600
or absurdity in other words

0:25:53.279,0:26:00.000
no one foresaw the pandemic

0:25:57.600,0:26:01.440
now history doesn't repeat itself there

0:26:00.000,0:26:04.480
were no great changes

0:26:01.440,0:26:05.440
in australia after the influenza perhaps

0:26:04.480,0:26:08.840
because

0:26:05.440,0:26:11.919
we'd had sixty thousand die in world war

0:26:08.840,0:26:15.679
one but it's very clear

0:26:11.919,0:26:19.919
that this current covet 19 pandemic

0:26:15.679,0:26:23.120
will lead to significant changes already

0:26:19.919,0:26:24.159
we've seen work being done online work

0:26:23.120,0:26:27.279
at home

0:26:24.159,0:26:29.360
we've seen the importance of workers in

0:26:27.279,0:26:30.480
aged care homes and nurses and in our

0:26:29.360,0:26:32.720
health industry

0:26:30.480,0:26:35.120
and we've got a new appreciation and

0:26:32.720,0:26:37.600
we're going to have to rethink

0:26:35.120,0:26:38.880
casual employment if casual employment

0:26:37.600,0:26:42.400
is intermittent

0:26:38.880,0:26:44.799
and casual then that's perhaps okay

0:26:42.400,0:26:46.080
but if casual employment means permanent

0:26:44.799,0:26:48.159
precarity

0:26:46.080,0:26:50.640
then we're going to have to think about

0:26:48.159,0:26:52.960
issues such as sick leave and vacation

0:26:50.640,0:26:56.320
perhaps through national schemes like

0:26:52.960,0:27:00.080
national long service leave schemes

0:26:56.320,0:27:02.799
we are in new and uncharted territory

0:27:00.080,0:27:05.279
and i'll just end by saying i am not

0:27:02.799,0:27:09.360
really fit to predict the future

0:27:05.279,0:27:12.080
in 1982 i was in east berlin

0:27:09.360,0:27:14.559
and was searched going across checkpoint

0:27:12.080,0:27:17.120
charlie or whatever it was called

0:27:14.559,0:27:17.600
if you had told me that within seven

0:27:17.120,0:27:20.559
years

0:27:17.600,0:27:22.480
the berlin wall would come tumbling down

0:27:20.559,0:27:25.440
i wouldn't have believed you

0:27:22.480,0:27:26.799
so let's wait and see what happens and

0:27:25.440,0:27:30.000
how this pandemic

0:27:26.799,0:27:32.399
reshapes our lives thank you i'm now

0:27:30.000,0:27:34.640
going to hand over to the president

0:27:32.399,0:27:37.360
of the fair work commission justice ian

0:27:34.640,0:27:42.159
ross and i can't resist saying

0:27:37.360,0:27:42.159
he was also one of my very best students

0:27:42.880,0:27:47.279
thank you very much ron i don't remember

0:27:44.960,0:27:50.000
you saying that when i was a student but

0:27:47.279,0:27:52.320
i appreciate the comment now good

0:27:50.000,0:27:54.640
evening to everyone who's attending this

0:27:52.320,0:27:57.200
evening's debate i'm delighted

0:27:54.640,0:27:59.200
to be chairing it and for tonight's

0:27:57.200,0:28:00.880
debate we have two representatives from

0:27:59.200,0:28:04.559
the union movement

0:28:00.880,0:28:07.440
two from business and two from academia

0:28:04.559,0:28:08.240
and their bios are in the background

0:28:07.440,0:28:11.520
paper

0:28:08.240,0:28:12.960
which was circulated prior to today's

0:28:11.520,0:28:14.960
event

0:28:12.960,0:28:18.000
i would like to welcome from the union

0:28:14.960,0:28:22.960
side firstly sally mcmanus the secretary

0:28:18.000,0:28:22.960
of the actu um hello sally

0:28:23.120,0:28:27.919
and annie butler from the australian

0:28:25.440,0:28:31.039
nursing and midwifery federation

0:28:27.919,0:28:32.880
hello annie hello thank you

0:28:31.039,0:28:34.559
and on the business side i'd like to

0:28:32.880,0:28:35.600
welcome jennifer westicott the chief

0:28:34.559,0:28:39.440
executive

0:28:35.600,0:28:41.679
of the bca hello jennifer hi

0:28:39.440,0:28:43.360
and indus willows the chief executive of

0:28:41.679,0:28:46.480
the australian industry group

0:28:43.360,0:28:48.960
hello in us our two academic

0:28:46.480,0:28:51.440
representatives are firstly

0:28:48.960,0:28:53.600
joe allen riley munton professor of law

0:28:51.440,0:28:55.840
at the university of technology

0:28:53.600,0:28:58.000
sydney and the vice president of the

0:28:55.840,0:29:00.240
aiers board welcome joe

0:28:58.000,0:29:00.240
allen

0:29:01.440,0:29:05.679
and last but not least i'd like to

0:29:04.159,0:29:07.600
welcome david peats

0:29:05.679,0:29:09.120
professor of employment relations at

0:29:07.600,0:29:11.760
griffith university

0:29:09.120,0:29:13.039
and a co-researcher at the inter

0:29:11.760,0:29:16.159
university centre

0:29:13.039,0:29:21.200
for research on globalization and work

0:29:16.159,0:29:23.120
in canada hello david hello everybody

0:29:21.200,0:29:25.520
as james mentioned earlier this

0:29:23.120,0:29:27.919
evening's debate is in two parts

0:29:25.520,0:29:29.360
we'll begin by having a three minute

0:29:27.919,0:29:30.640
presentation from each of our

0:29:29.360,0:29:34.080
participants

0:29:30.640,0:29:35.600
on the topic of covert 19 has shaken up

0:29:34.080,0:29:39.520
the whole world

0:29:35.600,0:29:42.159
we're two nixed for ir in australia

0:29:39.520,0:29:44.399
each speaker will be given a 20-second

0:29:42.159,0:29:47.120
warning before their time is up

0:29:44.399,0:29:49.120
once we finish the presentations the

0:29:47.120,0:29:50.720
debate will begin

0:29:49.120,0:29:52.960
and i'll be putting questions to

0:29:50.720,0:29:54.799
different members on our panel

0:29:52.960,0:29:57.279
and i would ask that they keep their

0:29:54.799,0:29:59.120
answers to about two minutes

0:29:57.279,0:30:01.120
so that we can get a range of views and

0:29:59.120,0:30:03.600
perspectives

0:30:01.120,0:30:05.679
the main questions that i'll be putting

0:30:03.600,0:30:08.320
are set out in the background paper

0:30:05.679,0:30:10.640
that's already been circulated and i

0:30:08.320,0:30:14.080
might pick up on some people's answers

0:30:10.640,0:30:15.760
and get others to respond we'll see how

0:30:14.080,0:30:18.080
we go

0:30:15.760,0:30:20.320
as you all know the questions that we'll

0:30:18.080,0:30:23.360
be putting to our panelists

0:30:20.320,0:30:24.640
concern the broad topic of what is the

0:30:23.360,0:30:27.760
impact

0:30:24.640,0:30:31.520
of the covert pandemic on

0:30:27.760,0:30:34.640
work employment labor relations

0:30:31.520,0:30:37.919
globally and locally and what

0:30:34.640,0:30:40.880
impetus and opportunity does it present

0:30:37.919,0:30:43.120
for reform so if we can start with the

0:30:40.880,0:30:46.320
individual presenter presentations

0:30:43.120,0:30:47.039
and sally i'd ask you to go first thank

0:30:46.320,0:30:49.520
you anne

0:30:47.039,0:30:51.120
um i'd like to acknowledge i'm on the

0:30:49.520,0:30:54.399
land and another old people

0:30:51.120,0:30:56.159
in canberra i'd also like to

0:30:54.399,0:30:58.320
pay my respect to ron on behalf of the

0:30:56.159,0:31:00.480
union movement for your contributions

0:30:58.320,0:31:03.200
and your giant intellect

0:31:00.480,0:31:05.360
i want to talk about when flexibility

0:31:03.200,0:31:07.840
isn't a two-way street

0:31:05.360,0:31:08.880
so um in addressing the issue of

0:31:07.840,0:31:10.880
flexibility

0:31:08.880,0:31:11.919
it's really good to do so within the

0:31:10.880,0:31:15.760
context of

0:31:11.919,0:31:17.919
the pandemic of covert 19 because really

0:31:15.760,0:31:21.039
there couldn't have been a bigger stress

0:31:17.919,0:31:23.200
test on our set of workers rights

0:31:21.039,0:31:25.120
you know we've had workplaces shut down

0:31:23.200,0:31:27.760
really with no notice in so many

0:31:25.120,0:31:30.159
circumstances overnight a significant

0:31:27.760,0:31:30.399
reduction in business activity reduction

0:31:30.159,0:31:33.279
in

0:31:30.399,0:31:35.679
hours changes in where works performed

0:31:33.279,0:31:38.640
as was mentioned with working from home

0:31:35.679,0:31:40.480
and even big changes in the type of work

0:31:38.640,0:31:42.960
that people have needed to undertake

0:31:40.480,0:31:43.760
during this pandemic and it's happened

0:31:42.960,0:31:47.039
to all of us

0:31:43.760,0:31:49.919
to workers and to employers very quickly

0:31:47.039,0:31:50.240
and in a way none of us could plan for

0:31:49.919,0:31:52.240
so

0:31:50.240,0:31:53.440
really i think the question is what has

0:31:52.240,0:31:56.960
this nationwide

0:31:53.440,0:31:58.080
rolling test taught us about our system

0:31:56.960,0:32:01.200
of workplace rights

0:31:58.080,0:32:03.679
in our country now first of all

0:32:01.200,0:32:05.600
have our workplace laws being flexible

0:32:03.679,0:32:07.919
enough to respond to

0:32:05.600,0:32:09.919
what's happened in all the myriad

0:32:07.919,0:32:12.320
impacts that i talked about

0:32:09.919,0:32:14.559
because quite often commentators will

0:32:12.320,0:32:17.360
talk as if it's a truism that

0:32:14.559,0:32:18.480
uh our workplace laws are so inflexible

0:32:17.360,0:32:20.880
they're they're

0:32:18.480,0:32:22.320
so inflexible they stop things happening

0:32:20.880,0:32:24.880
it's the big problem

0:32:22.320,0:32:26.960
and i would really um challenge that

0:32:24.880,0:32:28.240
premise and i challenge it not through

0:32:26.960,0:32:30.399
listening to what i say

0:32:28.240,0:32:32.640
but thinking about what has actually

0:32:30.399,0:32:35.760
happened in our country in this big

0:32:32.640,0:32:36.799
experiment we are all forced into very

0:32:35.760,0:32:38.559
quickly

0:32:36.799,0:32:39.919
because over the last six months you

0:32:38.559,0:32:42.960
think about how

0:32:39.919,0:32:45.039
our set of workplace laws have responded

0:32:42.960,0:32:47.120
there have been temporary changes that

0:32:45.039,0:32:48.960
have been made to awards across a whole

0:32:47.120,0:32:51.760
lot of awards to adapt to

0:32:48.960,0:32:52.320
what was needed in that particular time

0:32:51.760,0:32:54.399
there have been

0:32:52.320,0:32:56.720
temporary changes made to the fair work

0:32:54.399,0:32:59.279
act as well with the job keeper

0:32:56.720,0:33:00.399
to enable job keeper unions and

0:32:59.279,0:33:03.279
employers

0:33:00.399,0:33:04.720
right across the country have negotiated

0:33:03.279,0:33:06.640
significant changes

0:33:04.720,0:33:08.640
and they are different depending on how

0:33:06.640,0:33:10.640
you're impacted by the pandemic

0:33:08.640,0:33:13.360
under their enterprise agreements or

0:33:10.640,0:33:15.679
just locally they've negotiated them

0:33:13.360,0:33:17.760
and you know some of those include uh

0:33:15.679,0:33:20.880
having to move whole workforces

0:33:17.760,0:33:22.559
uh to work from home and the majority of

0:33:20.880,0:33:23.679
these places where there's been working

0:33:22.559,0:33:25.519
from home there's been

0:33:23.679,0:33:27.360
strong union presence so public

0:33:25.519,0:33:28.799
administration in banks in larger

0:33:27.360,0:33:31.679
workplaces

0:33:28.799,0:33:32.880
and so what has all this you know meant

0:33:31.679,0:33:35.840
like what's happened

0:33:32.880,0:33:36.960
so what's actually happened is change

0:33:35.840,0:33:40.159
has come about

0:33:36.960,0:33:43.279
in an orderly and in a uniform way

0:33:40.159,0:33:46.880
it's happened quickly it's happened

0:33:43.279,0:33:48.320
with safeguards so yes employers have

0:33:46.880,0:33:50.240
needed flexibility and

0:33:48.320,0:33:52.720
everyone's needed flexibility to deal

0:33:50.240,0:33:53.919
with this crisis but it hasn't happened

0:33:52.720,0:33:57.039
without protections

0:33:53.919,0:33:58.960
or safeguards for working people so that

0:33:57.039,0:34:00.720
would be safeguards that already exist

0:33:58.960,0:34:01.440
within our laws or ones that were

0:34:00.720,0:34:04.799
included

0:34:01.440,0:34:06.320
in the job keeper legislation such as

0:34:04.799,0:34:08.800
the ability of the fair work commission

0:34:06.320,0:34:09.919
to arbitrate any issues that come before

0:34:08.800,0:34:11.839
it

0:34:09.919,0:34:14.240
and changes of course have been made

0:34:11.839,0:34:17.280
actually by and large by negotiation

0:34:14.240,0:34:18.399
at local levels so this has been the

0:34:17.280,0:34:20.399
biggest calamity

0:34:18.399,0:34:21.760
in terms of work workforces or

0:34:20.399,0:34:24.320
workplaces

0:34:21.760,0:34:25.520
in our working lives in a generation

0:34:24.320,0:34:27.679
maybe a few

0:34:25.520,0:34:28.639
and it hasn't been the law of the jungle

0:34:27.679,0:34:30.480
in australia

0:34:28.639,0:34:32.320
unlike a whole lot of other countries

0:34:30.480,0:34:34.240
where changes happen

0:34:32.320,0:34:36.960
workers have had no protections

0:34:34.240,0:34:37.359
whatsoever and employers also have had

0:34:36.960,0:34:39.599
to

0:34:37.359,0:34:40.560
make things up as they went along or

0:34:39.599,0:34:43.200
there's been

0:34:40.560,0:34:45.200
unfair competition because of that too

0:34:43.200,0:34:45.919
so i would argue that there can be no

0:34:45.200,0:34:47.919
doubt

0:34:45.919,0:34:49.040
that our unique system of awards

0:34:47.919,0:34:51.440
agreements and

0:34:49.040,0:34:53.200
where it's been enlivened a tribunal

0:34:51.440,0:34:56.399
that can deal with issues

0:34:53.200,0:34:58.079
it's ensured lacks the flexibility that

0:34:56.399,0:35:01.359
employers have needed

0:34:58.079,0:35:02.960
to deal with the pandemic as well as

0:35:01.359,0:35:05.200
protections or fairness

0:35:02.960,0:35:06.880
for workers and i reckon that this is

0:35:05.200,0:35:07.599
something we should celebrate as a

0:35:06.880,0:35:09.040
country

0:35:07.599,0:35:10.800
should be something that we should be

0:35:09.040,0:35:12.880
proud of the fact that

0:35:10.800,0:35:15.680
we have this system that we have

0:35:12.880,0:35:17.680
developed together over a period of time

0:35:15.680,0:35:19.760
and it stood up under the biggest stress

0:35:17.680,0:35:23.280
test it's ever going to get

0:35:19.760,0:35:25.680
all right so we might need to

0:35:23.280,0:35:26.960
leave it there and in order to keep

0:35:25.680,0:35:30.000
moving it along

0:35:26.960,0:35:33.920
can i go to you next in us and get your

0:35:30.000,0:35:35.920
short perspective on this broad issue

0:35:33.920,0:35:37.119
thank you ann thank you very much and

0:35:35.920,0:35:39.599
thank you to ron

0:35:37.119,0:35:40.400
uh again i joined with sally in passing

0:35:39.599,0:35:43.119
on

0:35:40.400,0:35:44.640
our thanks uh for all your work as well

0:35:43.119,0:35:46.240
and thank you to the panel for joining

0:35:44.640,0:35:48.320
us tonight and to

0:35:46.240,0:35:49.920
all in the audience always an

0:35:48.320,0:35:51.920
interesting topic

0:35:49.920,0:35:53.520
in many ways i agree with sally who's

0:35:51.920,0:35:55.119
just wandered off i hope this is because

0:35:53.520,0:35:58.960
i'm not speaking but um

0:35:55.119,0:35:58.960
i've got to plug my um thing

0:36:01.839,0:36:06.560
um i would agree with sally in many many

0:36:05.119,0:36:08.880
ways the system has

0:36:06.560,0:36:09.839
stood up and held up remarkably well

0:36:08.880,0:36:12.560
through

0:36:09.839,0:36:13.040
what has been the first six or eight

0:36:12.560,0:36:15.280
months

0:36:13.040,0:36:18.000
of what will be a longer running

0:36:15.280,0:36:20.000
pandemic we're probably

0:36:18.000,0:36:21.040
at the end of wave one and there is more

0:36:20.000,0:36:24.480
to come

0:36:21.040,0:36:26.960
when i talk to employers now the the big

0:36:24.480,0:36:30.640
issue in the front of their minds

0:36:26.960,0:36:32.800
is not industrial relations largely

0:36:30.640,0:36:34.800
it's issues around investment it's

0:36:32.800,0:36:36.320
issues around skills around labor

0:36:34.800,0:36:38.880
mobility

0:36:36.320,0:36:41.040
it's about how do they get through this

0:36:38.880,0:36:42.560
next phase and the phases that will come

0:36:41.040,0:36:45.119
after we saw

0:36:42.560,0:36:47.200
uh as greg mentioned millions of people

0:36:45.119,0:36:49.680
unemployed globally displaced

0:36:47.200,0:36:53.200
uh within australia we've seen 3.5

0:36:49.680,0:36:55.599
million people on jobkeeper at its peak

0:36:53.200,0:36:58.079
that's coming down now but we have seen

0:36:55.599,0:36:59.920
massive disruption occurring

0:36:58.079,0:37:01.839
so i think sally's right the system has

0:36:59.920,0:37:03.520
done very well to get through where it

0:37:01.839,0:37:06.000
has it has built-in

0:37:03.520,0:37:07.440
flexibilities both for employees and

0:37:06.000,0:37:10.480
employers

0:37:07.440,0:37:12.000
to get them through to this point but

0:37:10.480,0:37:14.160
those sort of issues that

0:37:12.000,0:37:16.240
employers are looking at are the sort of

0:37:14.160,0:37:18.079
issues that are going to be the broader

0:37:16.240,0:37:20.000
long-term issues that we need to

0:37:18.079,0:37:21.520
address as well ron in his opening

0:37:20.000,0:37:24.400
remarks talked

0:37:21.520,0:37:24.880
a bit around the disruption that is to

0:37:24.400,0:37:27.280
come

0:37:24.880,0:37:29.040
i think from an employer perspective you

0:37:27.280,0:37:31.440
are likely to see

0:37:29.040,0:37:33.200
more disruption come in what might

0:37:31.440,0:37:35.680
government come under the umbrella of

0:37:33.200,0:37:38.800
industry 4.0

0:37:35.680,0:37:41.520
digitalisation automation

0:37:38.800,0:37:43.520
machine to machine learning the skills

0:37:41.520,0:37:45.040
that are required to adapt to work in

0:37:43.520,0:37:45.920
that sort of economy are going to be

0:37:45.040,0:37:47.040
crucial

0:37:45.920,0:37:49.119
they're the sort of things that

0:37:47.040,0:37:51.040
employers are looking at now that's

0:37:49.119,0:37:53.440
probably where the sort of the next

0:37:51.040,0:37:54.720
area of flexibility if i can use that

0:37:53.440,0:37:56.960
word sally you

0:37:54.720,0:37:59.280
introduced it and it's appropriate to

0:37:56.960,0:38:02.880
use but that will that will be needed

0:37:59.280,0:38:05.119
in the system um and that's where um

0:38:02.880,0:38:07.920
where employers are looking to the

0:38:05.119,0:38:11.200
future no doubt as they try to adapt

0:38:07.920,0:38:14.079
and change how employers and employment

0:38:11.200,0:38:14.720
emerges from this particular part of the

0:38:14.079,0:38:18.079
crisis

0:38:14.720,0:38:20.480
is clearly still to be determined but

0:38:18.079,0:38:22.720
there are three quick areas to look at

0:38:20.480,0:38:24.560
awards enterprise bargaining and the

0:38:22.720,0:38:25.599
role of casuals and i'm happy to talk

0:38:24.560,0:38:27.520
about those

0:38:25.599,0:38:29.520
more during the debate but that's sort

0:38:27.520,0:38:33.119
of the macro picture from an employer

0:38:29.520,0:38:35.119
perspective back to you thank you enos

0:38:33.119,0:38:37.760
joe allen can we get your perspective on

0:38:35.119,0:38:37.760
these issues

0:38:43.119,0:38:48.720
has treated labour higher and the way

0:38:46.160,0:38:51.119
labour hire practices have contributed

0:38:48.720,0:38:52.160
to the proliferation of precarious forms

0:38:51.119,0:38:54.560
of work

0:38:52.160,0:38:55.680
now of course labour hire when it is

0:38:54.560,0:38:59.359
genuinely

0:38:55.680,0:39:00.000
hiring temps such as secretarial staff

0:38:59.359,0:39:02.880
to fill in

0:39:00.000,0:39:03.680
for a secretary who's on a you know a

0:39:02.880,0:39:06.880
couple of weeks

0:39:03.680,0:39:10.480
annual leave works very well to treat

0:39:06.880,0:39:12.560
the labour hire agency as the employer

0:39:10.480,0:39:15.119
but i think the fact that australian

0:39:12.560,0:39:17.200
labour law treats the labor hire agency

0:39:15.119,0:39:19.760
rather than the host employer

0:39:17.200,0:39:20.640
as the employer with responsibilities

0:39:19.760,0:39:24.320
has in fact

0:39:20.640,0:39:28.079
encouraged the overuse

0:39:24.320,0:39:30.880
of labour hire and has we've seen

0:39:28.079,0:39:32.640
labour hire being used for regular labor

0:39:30.880,0:39:35.520
forces we saw that with the work

0:39:32.640,0:39:37.040
pack cases the work pack cases were a

0:39:35.520,0:39:39.040
problem because

0:39:37.040,0:39:40.880
those labour hire workers were not

0:39:39.040,0:39:44.560
really temporary casuals

0:39:40.880,0:39:46.240
they were on 12 months out rosters

0:39:44.560,0:39:48.000
now the number of stories we've seen

0:39:46.240,0:39:49.440
through the pandemic about aged care

0:39:48.000,0:39:51.119
workers in particular

0:39:49.440,0:39:53.920
spreading the disease because they've

0:39:51.119,0:39:55.440
moved from one workplace to another

0:39:53.920,0:39:57.200
suggests that workers are needing to

0:39:55.440,0:39:59.200
take a lot of assignments

0:39:57.200,0:40:00.720
in different workplaces in order to make

0:39:59.200,0:40:04.000
up the hours they need for

0:40:00.720,0:40:04.400
to get a decent weekly wage and they're

0:40:04.000,0:40:05.920
all

0:40:04.400,0:40:08.079
casual or worse still they're

0:40:05.920,0:40:11.200
independent contractors

0:40:08.079,0:40:13.599
we have to ask ourselves why don't they

0:40:11.200,0:40:14.240
just have one job in one place why

0:40:13.599,0:40:16.319
they're

0:40:14.240,0:40:17.520
they're all moving across working

0:40:16.319,0:40:20.240
everywhere

0:40:17.520,0:40:21.520
um why don't they have paid sick leaving

0:40:20.240,0:40:23.520
entitlements

0:40:21.520,0:40:25.680
so that they can actually stay home when

0:40:23.520,0:40:27.599
they're sick well it's because the

0:40:25.680,0:40:29.760
operators of businesses want to avoid

0:40:27.599,0:40:31.440
the costs of direct employment and labor

0:40:29.760,0:40:34.240
hire allows them to do that

0:40:31.440,0:40:35.280
and labor hire is cheap and if you don't

0:40:34.240,0:40:37.520
believe me

0:40:35.280,0:40:40.160
have a look at the personnel contracting

0:40:37.520,0:40:42.960
case that the federal court decided

0:40:40.160,0:40:45.040
this year it showed that a 22 year old

0:40:42.960,0:40:46.480
backpacker engaged on a labor hire

0:40:45.040,0:40:50.079
contract could be paid

0:40:46.480,0:40:50.800
only 75 of the wages he would have

0:40:50.079,0:40:53.599
earned

0:40:50.800,0:40:55.520
as a direct employee of the host he was

0:40:53.599,0:40:58.400
an independent contractor

0:40:55.520,0:41:01.760
he had no right to award wages and no

0:40:58.400,0:41:04.400
paid leave entitlements

0:41:01.760,0:41:06.079
the case says we'll tolerate that

0:41:04.400,0:41:07.760
because it's been going on for more than

0:41:06.079,0:41:11.200
15 years

0:41:07.760,0:41:13.119
i would suggest we need to look again

0:41:11.200,0:41:14.560
at the decision that was made some years

0:41:13.119,0:41:17.680
ago about

0:41:14.560,0:41:18.400
who the real employer is when you've in

0:41:17.680,0:41:21.839
fact got

0:41:18.400,0:41:21.839
a permanent workforce

0:41:23.119,0:41:26.800
thank you joe allen can we go to annie

0:41:25.440,0:41:29.280
can i get your perspective

0:41:26.800,0:41:31.680
on this issue yes thank you very much

0:41:29.280,0:41:33.440
and thank you so much for the invitation

0:41:31.680,0:41:35.280
and i'd also just like to acknowledge

0:41:33.440,0:41:37.520
that i'm joining the meeting from the

0:41:35.280,0:41:40.079
lands of the waranjari people and pay

0:41:37.520,0:41:43.440
them my respects and also respects

0:41:40.079,0:41:46.400
um to all my fellow panelists

0:41:43.440,0:41:47.839
so from the perspective of my union's

0:41:46.400,0:41:50.319
members that's nurses

0:41:47.839,0:41:52.079
midwives and aged care workers who've

0:41:50.319,0:41:54.640
definitely been at the forefront

0:41:52.079,0:41:57.040
of dealing with this pandemic have to

0:41:54.640,0:41:58.960
say that covert 19 has indeed shaken

0:41:57.040,0:42:00.240
and in fact is continuing to shake up

0:41:58.960,0:42:01.839
the whole world

0:42:00.240,0:42:03.839
and while recognising that the second

0:42:01.839,0:42:04.560
wave in victoria has been extremely

0:42:03.839,0:42:06.560
challenging

0:42:04.560,0:42:08.400
australia's actually been fortunate with

0:42:06.560,0:42:10.400
regard to the covered mountain outbreak

0:42:08.400,0:42:11.839
compared to many other countries around

0:42:10.400,0:42:13.440
the world

0:42:11.839,0:42:15.440
and while australia has a number of

0:42:13.440,0:42:18.319
natural advantages

0:42:15.440,0:42:19.760
pragmatic action taken by governments

0:42:18.319,0:42:21.520
and their engagement with and

0:42:19.760,0:42:23.440
responsiveness to health and other

0:42:21.520,0:42:26.560
experts and their advice

0:42:23.440,0:42:28.839
has led to what is regarded globally as

0:42:26.560,0:42:30.400
successful containment of the pandemics

0:42:28.839,0:42:32.800
outbreak

0:42:30.400,0:42:35.599
that said our management of the cobot

0:42:32.800,0:42:38.160
outbreak has revealed much about us

0:42:35.599,0:42:38.800
it has not only highlighted highlighted

0:42:38.160,0:42:41.520
but also

0:42:38.800,0:42:43.280
deepened our existing inequities and

0:42:41.520,0:42:46.480
shown us that our systems

0:42:43.280,0:42:47.760
favor some australians over others it's

0:42:46.480,0:42:50.960
shown us our strengths

0:42:47.760,0:42:53.839
and weaknesses our health response

0:42:50.960,0:42:54.880
from an adaptable universally accessible

0:42:53.839,0:42:58.240
system

0:42:54.880,0:43:00.240
staffed by highly skinned clinicians

0:42:58.240,0:43:02.480
and largely underpinned by a

0:43:00.240,0:43:05.040
sophisticated industrial framework

0:43:02.480,0:43:05.920
which assists in the delivery of quality

0:43:05.040,0:43:08.160
care

0:43:05.920,0:43:10.160
has been our great strength and while

0:43:08.160,0:43:12.960
our weaknesses have been several

0:43:10.160,0:43:14.640
from my union's perspective our aged

0:43:12.960,0:43:16.720
care response has been one of our

0:43:14.640,0:43:20.160
greatest weaknesses

0:43:16.720,0:43:22.079
a fragmented immature system poorly

0:43:20.160,0:43:25.200
staffed by a lowly paid

0:43:22.079,0:43:26.000
often lower skilled predominantly female

0:43:25.200,0:43:28.880
workforce

0:43:26.000,0:43:30.960
without a strong industrial framework

0:43:28.880,0:43:31.760
that supports the delivery of quality

0:43:30.960,0:43:34.160
care

0:43:31.760,0:43:36.079
and which consequently although tasked

0:43:34.160,0:43:37.520
with protecting and caring

0:43:36.079,0:43:39.359
for some of our countries most

0:43:37.520,0:43:40.000
vulnerable has been shamefully

0:43:39.359,0:43:42.880
inadequate

0:43:40.000,0:43:45.040
in its response to the pandemic as so

0:43:42.880,0:43:47.119
tragically demonstrated by the situation

0:43:45.040,0:43:49.760
seen here in victoria

0:43:47.119,0:43:50.640
so when we ask where to next for ir in

0:43:49.760,0:43:53.599
australia

0:43:50.640,0:43:54.079
in comparing these two responses i think

0:43:53.599,0:43:56.160
we should

0:43:54.079,0:43:57.280
ask what role our industrial relations

0:43:56.160,0:43:59.119
system can have

0:43:57.280,0:44:00.319
in turning these weaknesses into

0:43:59.119,0:44:03.040
strengths

0:44:00.319,0:44:04.960
what should the goal of our ir system be

0:44:03.040,0:44:07.359
rather than just balancing the interests

0:44:04.960,0:44:09.200
of employers and employees

0:44:07.359,0:44:10.960
should its goal be to consider the kind

0:44:09.200,0:44:12.720
of society we want

0:44:10.960,0:44:16.000
and whether we can make that one that

0:44:12.720,0:44:18.560
provides for all australians equally

0:44:16.000,0:44:21.119
and so how can we develop and embed an

0:44:18.560,0:44:23.760
ir system or improvements to our ir

0:44:21.119,0:44:25.280
system that will contribute to achieving

0:44:23.760,0:44:26.880
such a society

0:44:25.280,0:44:28.560
i think these should be the big

0:44:26.880,0:44:31.280
questions for the future

0:44:28.560,0:44:33.680
thank you thank you very much annie um

0:44:31.280,0:44:34.720
jennifer can i go to you for the bca's

0:44:33.680,0:44:36.480
perspective

0:44:34.720,0:44:37.760
thanks ian thank you everyone can i

0:44:36.480,0:44:40.319
acknowledge that i'm on

0:44:37.760,0:44:40.800
uh not all country uh in canberra and

0:44:40.319,0:44:42.480
can i

0:44:40.800,0:44:45.200
pay my respect to elders past and

0:44:42.480,0:44:46.880
present and also acknowledge the great

0:44:45.200,0:44:49.119
work of professor mccallum

0:44:46.880,0:44:51.280
if i cast back and forward the last time

0:44:49.119,0:44:53.280
we achieved transformational

0:44:51.280,0:44:55.280
productivity enhancing industrial

0:44:53.280,0:44:56.560
relations reform was in the hawk and

0:44:55.280,0:44:58.720
keating era

0:44:56.560,0:45:00.800
and it's because everyone could see a

0:44:58.720,0:45:02.800
national imperative for change

0:45:00.800,0:45:04.400
at other times changes to the system i

0:45:02.800,0:45:05.760
think are being mixed

0:45:04.400,0:45:07.200
with different views about whether

0:45:05.760,0:45:09.119
change was really needed or whether it

0:45:07.200,0:45:10.960
was the right change

0:45:09.119,0:45:12.960
but there's no doubt that that work we

0:45:10.960,0:45:15.359
undertook in the 1980s

0:45:12.960,0:45:17.040
supported in some part by the opposition

0:45:15.359,0:45:18.880
was work that was shared by the business

0:45:17.040,0:45:21.599
community in the trade union movement

0:45:18.880,0:45:23.520
and that great convergence was driven by

0:45:21.599,0:45:24.160
a shared view about the seriousness of a

0:45:23.520,0:45:26.000
threat

0:45:24.160,0:45:27.520
to australia's future prosperity now

0:45:26.000,0:45:30.160
that was not an external

0:45:27.520,0:45:32.000
threat like a virus or a war or a global

0:45:30.160,0:45:34.160
financial crisis but the threat that was

0:45:32.000,0:45:36.240
caused by the structural barriers

0:45:34.160,0:45:37.440
holding us back from competing with the

0:45:36.240,0:45:39.599
rest of the world and

0:45:37.440,0:45:40.960
government business unions and the

0:45:39.599,0:45:43.760
community rallied around

0:45:40.960,0:45:46.079
a national reform agenda and what needed

0:45:43.760,0:45:47.839
to occur because everyone understood

0:45:46.079,0:45:49.839
that working on that reform agenda was

0:45:47.839,0:45:51.359
how people stayed in work in good work

0:45:49.839,0:45:54.800
in secure work

0:45:51.359,0:45:55.359
and those big reforms gave us that 30

0:45:54.800,0:45:57.760
years

0:45:55.359,0:45:59.280
of uninterrupted economic growth i think

0:45:57.760,0:46:01.920
we're at a similar point now

0:45:59.280,0:46:03.520
even if covert hadn't happened there was

0:46:01.920,0:46:05.520
a need for us to come together

0:46:03.520,0:46:07.680
but cobot has put many of the big trends

0:46:05.520,0:46:09.680
in our society on steroids

0:46:07.680,0:46:11.839
and so we need to find that same sense

0:46:09.680,0:46:13.359
of shared purpose and working together

0:46:11.839,0:46:14.880
if i think about some of those big

0:46:13.359,0:46:17.839
seismic changes

0:46:14.880,0:46:19.680
our economy's uh way of working was

0:46:17.839,0:46:21.680
already transforming with rapid

0:46:19.680,0:46:23.200
technological change and task change

0:46:21.680,0:46:25.119
through digitization

0:46:23.200,0:46:26.640
empowered consumers are changing the way

0:46:25.119,0:46:29.839
production is done

0:46:26.640,0:46:32.400
but covert has also i think put into

0:46:29.839,0:46:35.200
sharp focus the enormous downside

0:46:32.400,0:46:36.960
of long-term sluggish wage growth of

0:46:35.200,0:46:39.200
falling business investment

0:46:36.960,0:46:40.319
and our storm productivity growth so

0:46:39.200,0:46:42.160
what do we want

0:46:40.319,0:46:43.920
uh to annie's point out of a modern

0:46:42.160,0:46:45.760
workplace system well we want people to

0:46:43.920,0:46:46.319
have jobs we want them to have secure

0:46:45.760,0:46:47.680
work

0:46:46.319,0:46:49.359
we want them to be able to stay working

0:46:47.680,0:46:51.040
on their lives we want them to have

0:46:49.359,0:46:52.560
easy access to the skills they need

0:46:51.040,0:46:53.440
today and tomorrow we want them to be

0:46:52.560,0:46:55.040
safe

0:46:53.440,0:46:57.200
and we want them to be able to work with

0:46:55.040,0:46:57.920
their employers to determine the best

0:46:57.200,0:46:59.520
way

0:46:57.920,0:47:01.920
they can be more productive so

0:46:59.520,0:47:03.760
enterprises are successful

0:47:01.920,0:47:05.440
and they can share in the benefits so

0:47:03.760,0:47:07.920
for me

0:47:05.440,0:47:09.119
the most important thing for us to

0:47:07.920,0:47:12.640
improve upon

0:47:09.119,0:47:15.359
going forward is the eba process

0:47:12.640,0:47:16.960
i believe for us to be more productive

0:47:15.359,0:47:17.760
for us to be successful for us to

0:47:16.960,0:47:20.000
recover

0:47:17.760,0:47:21.520
we need to reinvigorate the eba system

0:47:20.000,0:47:23.839
it's the only way we're going to get

0:47:21.520,0:47:25.920
people back into work into new jobs it's

0:47:23.839,0:47:28.319
the only way we're going to increase

0:47:25.920,0:47:29.839
wages and it's got to be a system that

0:47:28.319,0:47:31.760
drives productivity

0:47:29.839,0:47:33.200
that drives fairness and drives a more

0:47:31.760,0:47:35.520
successful economy

0:47:33.200,0:47:37.680
and i've got five key principles quickly

0:47:35.520,0:47:39.920
make the enterprise more successful and

0:47:37.680,0:47:41.920
share those benefits with employees

0:47:39.920,0:47:43.839
incentivize the parties to achieve

0:47:41.920,0:47:46.160
mutually beneficial outcomes

0:47:43.839,0:47:47.520
simplify the process and don't let it be

0:47:46.160,0:47:50.319
dominated by technical

0:47:47.520,0:47:51.680
technicalities deliver agreements that

0:47:50.319,0:47:53.680
genuinely

0:47:51.680,0:47:55.839
get to the enterprise specific

0:47:53.680,0:47:58.079
arrangements and allow agreements

0:47:55.839,0:47:59.040
to depart from awards where parties

0:47:58.079,0:48:01.440
agree

0:47:59.040,0:48:02.240
i believe fundamentally that unions in

0:48:01.440,0:48:04.480
business have got

0:48:02.240,0:48:06.000
a crucial role to work together to

0:48:04.480,0:48:08.240
deliver those modern

0:48:06.000,0:48:11.040
and productive workplaces and i want to

0:48:08.240,0:48:12.800
place on record my thanks to the ictu

0:48:11.040,0:48:15.440
for their cooperation throughout this

0:48:12.800,0:48:17.040
crisis because it's that cooperation

0:48:15.440,0:48:18.960
that has kept people tethered to their

0:48:17.040,0:48:20.480
jobs and i believe this has saved tens

0:48:18.960,0:48:22.079
of thousands of jobs

0:48:20.480,0:48:24.160
together i think we've got a moral

0:48:22.079,0:48:26.720
imperative to act on unemployment

0:48:24.160,0:48:27.920
the most immoral thing a society can do

0:48:26.720,0:48:30.559
is to willfully

0:48:27.920,0:48:32.480
allow unemployment to spiral so our

0:48:30.559,0:48:35.359
national task together is to get

0:48:32.480,0:48:37.359
people working again i believe a good

0:48:35.359,0:48:38.880
eba system is one of the central

0:48:37.359,0:48:39.680
platforms along with the things in us

0:48:38.880,0:48:42.559
talked about

0:48:39.680,0:48:43.599
to get people working again if we want

0:48:42.559,0:48:46.480
people to have secure

0:48:43.599,0:48:48.640
work good jobs rising wages we've got to

0:48:46.480,0:48:50.000
also remember that our starting point is

0:48:48.640,0:48:51.920
a strong economy

0:48:50.000,0:48:54.079
driven by the private sector that sees

0:48:51.920,0:48:57.200
businesses get up and running again

0:48:54.079,0:49:00.240
alongside our long-term

0:48:57.200,0:49:01.680
well-run social safety net and a very

0:49:00.240,0:49:03.839
strong set of provisions

0:49:01.680,0:49:05.040
to make for a fairer more inclusive

0:49:03.839,0:49:08.480
society

0:49:05.040,0:49:11.599
thanks thank you very much jennifer um

0:49:08.480,0:49:14.559
can i ask david peach to round out the

0:49:11.599,0:49:15.680
presentations from the panel uh thanks

0:49:14.559,0:49:17.680
president ross and

0:49:15.680,0:49:19.440
iran and to the traditional owners of

0:49:17.680,0:49:20.720
the durable country from where i'm

0:49:19.440,0:49:22.640
speaking

0:49:20.720,0:49:24.960
now i'm going to summarize some research

0:49:22.640,0:49:26.000
we're doing on working from home under

0:49:24.960,0:49:27.760
covert

0:49:26.000,0:49:29.520
and then talk about what that means for

0:49:27.760,0:49:32.319
ir so

0:49:29.520,0:49:35.040
a group of us studied 11 000 employees

0:49:32.319,0:49:36.960
in australian and canadian universities

0:49:35.040,0:49:38.800
through an online survey earlier this

0:49:36.960,0:49:40.720
year and i'm talking here

0:49:38.800,0:49:42.559
publicly for the first time about our

0:49:40.720,0:49:44.240
initial findings

0:49:42.559,0:49:46.160
now we might think of universities as

0:49:44.240,0:49:49.200
being staffed by academics but

0:49:46.160,0:49:51.040
more of them perform administrative or

0:49:49.200,0:49:51.520
professional roles similar to those in

0:49:51.040,0:49:54.400
our or

0:49:51.520,0:49:56.480
other organizations and we found that

0:49:54.400,0:49:58.800
people varied a lot in how much they

0:49:56.480,0:50:00.960
wanted to work from home

0:49:58.800,0:50:02.960
one thing was clear though most people

0:50:00.960,0:50:04.480
wanted to do some of their paid work

0:50:02.960,0:50:06.720
from home

0:50:04.480,0:50:07.839
but very few wanted to work from home

0:50:06.720,0:50:10.880
all the time

0:50:07.839,0:50:13.680
or none of the time for about a third of

0:50:10.880,0:50:15.359
the employees or roughly 50 50 balance

0:50:13.680,0:50:17.839
between working from the office and

0:50:15.359,0:50:19.359
working from home would be ideal

0:50:17.839,0:50:21.200
another two fifths would like to do a

0:50:19.359,0:50:23.359
majority of their work at home and a

0:50:21.200,0:50:24.800
court would like to do our minority from

0:50:23.359,0:50:26.800
home

0:50:24.800,0:50:29.359
so overall it wasn't a simple story

0:50:26.800,0:50:31.920
homeworking had a lot going for it

0:50:29.359,0:50:32.480
but he also saw some longer working

0:50:31.920,0:50:34.880
hours

0:50:32.480,0:50:37.760
interference between work and home and

0:50:34.880,0:50:40.000
high stress and job insecurity

0:50:37.760,0:50:41.520
the bottom line was working from home is

0:50:40.000,0:50:43.680
all too complex

0:50:41.520,0:50:45.520
for simple managerial edicts to work

0:50:43.680,0:50:47.040
without involving employees and their

0:50:45.520,0:50:50.400
representatives and decisions

0:50:47.040,0:50:52.640
so where to for i are

0:50:50.400,0:50:55.200
homeworking might well be the biggest

0:50:52.640,0:50:58.079
change in work over the next decade

0:50:55.200,0:51:00.000
but it has lots of dangers if managers

0:50:58.079,0:51:03.119
think they unilaterally know what to do

0:51:00.000,0:51:04.880
they could turn disorder into chaos but

0:51:03.119,0:51:06.960
there are also big opportunities

0:51:04.880,0:51:08.000
for organizations in finding more

0:51:06.960,0:51:10.559
efficient and cheaper

0:51:08.000,0:51:12.400
ways of working for unions in

0:51:10.559,0:51:14.319
representing workers

0:51:12.400,0:51:17.440
with whom they've encountered new ways

0:51:14.319,0:51:19.520
of communicating and organizing

0:51:17.440,0:51:22.800
and there are implications for how we

0:51:19.520,0:51:24.640
regulate especially through awards

0:51:22.800,0:51:27.200
the commission changed some working time

0:51:24.640,0:51:29.119
regulations to allow for homework

0:51:27.200,0:51:30.240
and it signaled that some portion of

0:51:29.119,0:51:32.800
changes might

0:51:30.240,0:51:33.599
need to be permanent rather than

0:51:32.800,0:51:36.079
abandoning

0:51:33.599,0:51:39.359
regulation of working time we need to

0:51:36.079,0:51:41.280
think about contingent regulation of it

0:51:39.359,0:51:43.599
some regulation of working time reflects

0:51:41.280,0:51:44.400
how travel and disruption makes short or

0:51:43.599,0:51:47.520
split shifts

0:51:44.400,0:51:49.119
very problematic for workers those

0:51:47.520,0:51:50.400
issues are transformed when people

0:51:49.119,0:51:52.400
working from home

0:51:50.400,0:51:54.079
so regulation that's suitable for the

0:51:52.400,0:51:56.640
employees premises

0:51:54.079,0:51:59.119
isn't designed for work from home well

0:51:56.640,0:52:00.480
that doesn't mean you abandon regulation

0:51:59.119,0:52:01.680
of working time at the employer's

0:52:00.480,0:52:03.520
premises

0:52:01.680,0:52:05.760
it means we need to think about

0:52:03.520,0:52:08.240
regulation that's conditional on

0:52:05.760,0:52:10.319
where employees are working different

0:52:08.240,0:52:12.160
working time regimes should apply

0:52:10.319,0:52:13.599
where the pace of work differs and

0:52:12.160,0:52:15.760
getting that right

0:52:13.599,0:52:19.280
will be a challenge for all parties

0:52:15.760,0:52:20.160
thank you thank you very much david well

0:52:19.280,0:52:23.599
if we can

0:52:20.160,0:52:25.760
begin with the the questions uh

0:52:23.599,0:52:26.960
to each member of the panel you'll

0:52:25.760,0:52:28.800
recall

0:52:26.960,0:52:30.559
that we'll draw those from the

0:52:28.800,0:52:31.440
discussion paper that was circulated

0:52:30.559,0:52:33.599
earlier

0:52:31.440,0:52:36.960
and i'd ask you to try and keep your

0:52:33.599,0:52:39.520
answers to within two minutes

0:52:36.960,0:52:40.800
sally if i can go to you first you you

0:52:39.520,0:52:44.559
touched on

0:52:40.800,0:52:45.200
the resilience of the system in the face

0:52:44.559,0:52:49.200
of

0:52:45.200,0:52:52.400
the pandemic and its flexibility

0:52:49.200,0:52:53.920
but then that opens up as david's

0:52:52.400,0:52:55.920
mentioned that the world of work is

0:52:53.920,0:52:58.839
changing in response to it

0:52:55.920,0:53:01.520
and so what features of the current

0:52:58.839,0:53:04.079
system do you think

0:53:01.520,0:53:05.119
need to be changed on the basis of what

0:53:04.079,0:53:08.400
we've learned

0:53:05.119,0:53:11.119
through the pandemic well two things

0:53:08.400,0:53:12.960
first of all i talked about flexibility

0:53:11.119,0:53:14.000
but there's a problem when flexibility

0:53:12.960,0:53:16.640
is just a one-way

0:53:14.000,0:53:17.760
street and as other speakers have

0:53:16.640,0:53:19.920
outlined

0:53:17.760,0:53:21.200
unfortunately a whole lot of insecure

0:53:19.920,0:53:22.720
work is that

0:53:21.200,0:53:24.720
sure there are a lot of people that have

0:53:22.720,0:53:26.960
wanted to have insecure work

0:53:24.720,0:53:28.240
and know upfront what the risks are and

0:53:26.960,0:53:30.160
take those risks

0:53:28.240,0:53:31.359
that's not what i'm talking about what

0:53:30.160,0:53:32.960
i'm talking about

0:53:31.359,0:53:34.720
are the business models that have

0:53:32.960,0:53:36.880
developed around it for example the

0:53:34.720,0:53:39.280
business models around labour hire

0:53:36.880,0:53:41.119
and um really to move forward from this

0:53:39.280,0:53:43.680
we've got a big problem in that not all

0:53:41.119,0:53:46.960
employer groups but some employer groups

0:53:43.680,0:53:48.559
won't even accept that it's a problem um

0:53:46.960,0:53:50.400
in fact probably some of them say it's a

0:53:48.559,0:53:52.480
good thing and that there's

0:53:50.400,0:53:53.520
there's as number insecure jobs that we

0:53:52.480,0:53:55.040
have that that is

0:53:53.520,0:53:57.359
in fact a good thing and i'd argue that

0:53:55.040,0:53:59.440
it's not and that in fact people will

0:53:57.359,0:54:01.119
not have confidence to spend

0:53:59.440,0:54:03.040
and for us to rebuild and to be a

0:54:01.119,0:54:03.520
stronger community unless we do address

0:54:03.040,0:54:05.680
it

0:54:03.520,0:54:07.119
the second big change is obviously the

0:54:05.680,0:54:09.359
one that david

0:54:07.119,0:54:10.400
has touched on and that's working from

0:54:09.359,0:54:12.160
home

0:54:10.400,0:54:14.400
there was various attempts at this in

0:54:12.160,0:54:16.079
the 90s and now it's happened on mass in

0:54:14.400,0:54:17.599
lots of different ways and technology

0:54:16.079,0:54:19.839
has evolved a lot

0:54:17.599,0:54:21.680
and i i our experience is the same

0:54:19.839,0:54:23.040
people are about as split about

0:54:21.680,0:54:24.720
whether they like it or whether they

0:54:23.040,0:54:25.440
don't and it's interesting to hear those

0:54:24.720,0:54:27.280
insights

0:54:25.440,0:54:29.280
and i do think that this is a challenge

0:54:27.280,0:54:31.520
that we need to deal with together

0:54:29.280,0:54:33.040
in terms of making sure that into the

0:54:31.520,0:54:33.599
future there's going to be more working

0:54:33.040,0:54:35.680
from home

0:54:33.599,0:54:37.440
that's not necessarily a bad thing but

0:54:35.680,0:54:39.440
how do we protect people

0:54:37.440,0:54:41.440
against work intensification and about

0:54:39.440,0:54:43.680
and from the mental health problems of

0:54:41.440,0:54:45.359
not having that um boundary between work

0:54:43.680,0:54:47.280
and life

0:54:45.359,0:54:49.119
all right thank you sally jennifer can i

0:54:47.280,0:54:50.880
just get um

0:54:49.119,0:54:52.240
your perspective on this one of the

0:54:50.880,0:54:54.240
questions

0:54:52.240,0:54:56.720
that's in the discussion paper is how

0:54:54.240,0:54:59.440
can we build it back better

0:54:56.720,0:55:01.599
and it's got it was interesting to me

0:54:59.440,0:55:04.079
it's got in brackets after it

0:55:01.599,0:55:05.520
for example more security or more

0:55:04.079,0:55:08.720
flexibility

0:55:05.520,0:55:10.880
and they're almost put as alternatives

0:55:08.720,0:55:12.240
do you see the question of security and

0:55:10.880,0:55:15.119
flexibility

0:55:12.240,0:55:17.359
as alternatives or are they things that

0:55:15.119,0:55:20.559
we can pursue in tandem

0:55:17.359,0:55:22.000
yeah i don't see them as if done

0:55:20.559,0:55:24.240
properly

0:55:22.000,0:55:25.839
as adults with one another i mean if we

0:55:24.240,0:55:28.960
want people to have

0:55:25.839,0:55:30.880
secure work and we do then we've got to

0:55:28.960,0:55:32.880
have the right arrangements that allow

0:55:30.880,0:55:35.119
enterprises to adapt and change so that

0:55:32.880,0:55:37.839
people can stay working i mean the most

0:55:35.119,0:55:38.799
the greatest threat as we've seen to job

0:55:37.839,0:55:41.119
security

0:55:38.799,0:55:43.200
has been the failure of businesses and

0:55:41.119,0:55:45.119
so it's absolutely crucial

0:55:43.200,0:55:46.559
that we get that we don't see these

0:55:45.119,0:55:49.359
things as competing

0:55:46.559,0:55:51.359
and that we design that properly i do

0:55:49.359,0:55:53.920
agree with sally that flexibility is not

0:55:51.359,0:55:56.480
a surrogate for removing people's rights

0:55:53.920,0:55:57.599
it is about making sure that we can have

0:55:56.480,0:55:59.599
the agility

0:55:57.599,0:56:02.000
that enterprises need to respond to

0:55:59.599,0:56:04.640
rapidly changing circumstances

0:56:02.000,0:56:06.079
that's not the same as eroding people's

0:56:04.640,0:56:07.359
fundamental rights and i think we've got

0:56:06.079,0:56:10.559
to get that conversation

0:56:07.359,0:56:11.440
absolutely right we've got to deal with

0:56:10.559,0:56:13.119
i think

0:56:11.440,0:56:15.839
in terms of putting back better we've

0:56:13.119,0:56:17.839
got to start really watching

0:56:15.839,0:56:18.880
on the inequality front we've got to

0:56:17.839,0:56:20.640
keep uh

0:56:18.880,0:56:23.119
make sure that we do not see the

0:56:20.640,0:56:25.839
structural exacerbation

0:56:23.119,0:56:27.599
of inequality be it gender be it

0:56:25.839,0:56:30.160
insecure work

0:56:27.599,0:56:31.119
be it lack of protections for people but

0:56:30.160,0:56:33.680
most importantly

0:56:31.119,0:56:34.960
be it long-term unemployment uh which i

0:56:33.680,0:56:38.079
think will see you know

0:56:34.960,0:56:39.359
huge problems with inequality so i think

0:56:38.079,0:56:42.400
that i don't see them in

0:56:39.359,0:56:44.240
as contradictory in i see them as things

0:56:42.400,0:56:47.440
you've designed properly

0:56:44.240,0:56:50.960
a greater flexibility

0:56:47.440,0:56:53.760
if done correctly should see people

0:56:50.960,0:56:54.720
with secure work and certainly in the

0:56:53.760,0:56:56.319
short term

0:56:54.720,0:56:57.839
that greater security is going to be

0:56:56.319,0:56:59.599
having a job and returning to the

0:56:57.839,0:57:01.680
workforce

0:56:59.599,0:57:03.760
thank you jennifer uh in us in your

0:57:01.680,0:57:04.960
opening remarks you identified three

0:57:03.760,0:57:07.520
areas

0:57:04.960,0:57:09.760
and one of those was in this space that

0:57:07.520,0:57:12.559
we've just been discussing

0:57:09.760,0:57:13.040
and that was around casual employment

0:57:12.559,0:57:16.160
and

0:57:13.040,0:57:18.960
you sort of a change in the definition

0:57:16.160,0:57:20.559
of casual employment what's that about

0:57:18.960,0:57:23.119
and why do you think you need to change

0:57:20.559,0:57:26.400
the definition

0:57:23.119,0:57:29.680
well ian we've seen uh through

0:57:26.400,0:57:31.200
uh this pandemic um some change in the

0:57:29.680,0:57:34.240
makeup of

0:57:31.200,0:57:36.480
of the employee of of employment

0:57:34.240,0:57:38.319
of those who are employed we have a

0:57:36.480,0:57:41.599
constant debate running between

0:57:38.319,0:57:42.960
employers and unions around the amount

0:57:41.599,0:57:44.960
of casualisation

0:57:42.960,0:57:46.079
within the work force it's remained at

0:57:44.960,0:57:49.119
about 20

0:57:46.079,0:57:51.839
and it's gone down um

0:57:49.119,0:57:53.599
since the pandemic hit now people people

0:57:51.839,0:57:54.000
look at that coin from two different

0:57:53.599,0:57:57.359
sides

0:57:54.000,0:57:59.920
as to as to why and how

0:57:57.359,0:58:01.359
but what we would argue is that um you

0:57:59.920,0:58:04.000
know we've seen and it was mentioned

0:58:01.359,0:58:05.839
earlier of the case around uh risato and

0:58:04.000,0:58:07.680
the like is that there needs to be some

0:58:05.839,0:58:11.359
certainty here

0:58:07.680,0:58:13.520
around what casual is some clip some

0:58:11.359,0:58:16.640
clarification and some certainty

0:58:13.520,0:58:19.040
both for the employer and the employee

0:58:16.640,0:58:22.480
that's very important at the moment

0:58:19.040,0:58:23.599
there is no certainty um thrown up by

0:58:22.480,0:58:26.240
the rosato

0:58:23.599,0:58:27.200
case and we believe that that should be

0:58:26.240,0:58:29.760
resolved

0:58:27.200,0:58:32.400
so that there then can be important

0:58:29.760,0:58:35.359
re-employment and re-engagement

0:58:32.400,0:58:37.680
as the pandemic works its way through

0:58:35.359,0:58:39.520
our big concern here is that i think as

0:58:37.680,0:58:41.200
as others have mentioned particularly

0:58:39.520,0:58:43.680
jennifer that the outcome here is about

0:58:41.200,0:58:46.160
trying to get people back into

0:58:43.680,0:58:48.079
work our big concern here is that people

0:58:46.160,0:58:50.240
will be denied

0:58:48.079,0:58:52.640
employment opportunities because of that

0:58:50.240,0:58:54.720
uncertainty that arises at the moment so

0:58:52.640,0:58:58.079
a clearer definition

0:58:54.720,0:59:00.559
around what a casual is within the

0:58:58.079,0:59:03.200
auspices of the fair work act would be

0:59:00.559,0:59:05.119
would be we would be a very good thing

0:59:03.200,0:59:05.839
for employment outcome and then that

0:59:05.119,0:59:07.839
leads to the

0:59:05.839,0:59:09.920
point the discussion that jennifer and

0:59:07.839,0:59:13.280
sally were just engaged in

0:59:09.920,0:59:14.720
around flexibility and fairness

0:59:13.280,0:59:16.400
but until you get that clearer

0:59:14.720,0:59:18.400
definition you're going to miss out both

0:59:16.400,0:59:20.880
on the flexibility and the fairness

0:59:18.400,0:59:21.920
perspective flexibility for the employee

0:59:20.880,0:59:24.880
and the employer

0:59:21.920,0:59:26.799
and fairness within society as a whole

0:59:24.880,0:59:27.200
so we just see that as an issue that

0:59:26.799,0:59:29.280
needs

0:59:27.200,0:59:30.720
the employers see that as a key issue

0:59:29.280,0:59:32.640
that just needs to be addressed

0:59:30.720,0:59:34.319
as we work our way through to the other

0:59:32.640,0:59:36.160
side all right

0:59:34.319,0:59:38.559
thank you enos uh joellen can i get you

0:59:36.160,0:59:40.880
to come in on this point that

0:59:38.559,0:59:41.760
you've heard sally made the observation

0:59:40.880,0:59:44.960
that

0:59:41.760,0:59:46.160
uh it's about in relation to for example

0:59:44.960,0:59:47.920
casual employment

0:59:46.160,0:59:49.280
there are some people who prefer that

0:59:47.920,0:59:52.160
form of engagement

0:59:49.280,0:59:53.680
but it's not about imposing it on the

0:59:52.160,0:59:55.359
broader spectrum

0:59:53.680,0:59:56.799
how do you see that working in the

0:59:55.359,0:59:59.359
labour hire

0:59:56.799,1:00:00.640
space there may be some people who

0:59:59.359,1:00:04.400
prefer to work in

1:00:00.640,1:00:06.319
in that in that field

1:00:04.400,1:00:07.599
and others who may have little

1:00:06.319,1:00:09.599
alternative

1:00:07.599,1:00:11.760
but how do you distinguish between the

1:00:09.599,1:00:14.000
two and how would you go about

1:00:11.760,1:00:17.440
addressing the issue you raised

1:00:14.000,1:00:20.799
about the cost differential well

1:00:17.440,1:00:23.200
i i think that when uh labour hire that

1:00:20.799,1:00:24.079
the labor hire is a temp agency and they

1:00:23.200,1:00:26.240
genuinely are

1:00:24.079,1:00:28.720
placing people in different places all

1:00:26.240,1:00:30.319
the time it makes sense for those people

1:00:28.720,1:00:32.240
to be casual employees

1:00:30.319,1:00:35.359
i'd say employees not independent

1:00:32.240,1:00:37.440
contractors of the labour hire agency

1:00:35.359,1:00:38.640
but i think when it's oh we're going to

1:00:37.440,1:00:43.119
place you

1:00:38.640,1:00:45.040
mr rosato or mr skein on a 12 month

1:00:43.119,1:00:46.400
working side by side with direct

1:00:45.040,1:00:48.559
employees on

1:00:46.400,1:00:50.400
you know fly and fly out mine sites for

1:00:48.559,1:00:52.960
38 hours a week

1:00:50.400,1:00:54.079
i think at that point you say those

1:00:52.960,1:00:58.160
workers have now become

1:00:54.079,1:00:59.680
employees of the of the host

1:00:58.160,1:01:01.680
you've got to actually look at the

1:00:59.680,1:01:04.559
reality of the situation

1:01:01.680,1:01:05.520
not simply a label that somebody chooses

1:01:04.559,1:01:08.079
to put on it

1:01:05.520,1:01:09.760
because to be perfectly frank not all

1:01:08.079,1:01:11.760
employees

1:01:09.760,1:01:14.079
who are engaged are going to look at the

1:01:11.760,1:01:15.920
legal labels they're going to say

1:01:14.079,1:01:18.319
oh what am i being offered here i'm

1:01:15.920,1:01:19.200
being offered indefinite employment 38

1:01:18.319,1:01:21.440
hours a week

1:01:19.200,1:01:23.280
at this mine site they're not looking at

1:01:21.440,1:01:24.720
oh this is called casual and that means

1:01:23.280,1:01:26.640
i get this and that means i'm not

1:01:24.720,1:01:29.200
entitled to that

1:01:26.640,1:01:33.520
we have to actually regulate around what

1:01:29.200,1:01:33.520
the reality of the relationship is

1:01:34.160,1:01:37.440
thank you annie can i go to a point that

1:01:36.799,1:01:39.280
you made

1:01:37.440,1:01:41.839
during your presentation and that was

1:01:39.280,1:01:43.200
about what the objects of the system

1:01:41.839,1:01:45.599
might be

1:01:43.200,1:01:47.280
and this also was picked up by

1:01:45.599,1:01:50.319
jennifer's comments when

1:01:47.280,1:01:53.200
she was talking about in in the past

1:01:50.319,1:01:55.839
reform efforts have been on the back of

1:01:53.200,1:01:58.079
a shared vision and a shared purpose

1:01:55.839,1:01:59.839
for engaging with a particular crisis or

1:01:58.079,1:02:03.839
a problem

1:01:59.839,1:02:05.680
if we step back then from the minutia

1:02:03.839,1:02:08.160
what would be the system what would be

1:02:05.680,1:02:11.119
the objects of the system as you see it

1:02:08.160,1:02:12.480
what do you see as the basis for perhaps

1:02:11.119,1:02:14.880
that shared

1:02:12.480,1:02:17.119
vision about what our industrial

1:02:14.880,1:02:21.280
relation system is doing

1:02:17.119,1:02:23.839
yeah thank you and it's a point i'm very

1:02:21.280,1:02:24.960
keen to make and coming from it very

1:02:23.839,1:02:28.880
much from a health

1:02:24.960,1:02:30.799
nursing care lens because

1:02:28.880,1:02:33.440
industrial the industrial relations

1:02:30.799,1:02:36.160
system has the capacity to deliver

1:02:33.440,1:02:36.720
us things that we want as more human

1:02:36.160,1:02:40.799
goals

1:02:36.720,1:02:43.280
health goals and better outcomes

1:02:40.799,1:02:44.960
for individuals who are care recipients

1:02:43.280,1:02:45.680
across a whole range of settings in our

1:02:44.960,1:02:48.559
society

1:02:45.680,1:02:48.799
so when we're touching upon the concerns

1:02:48.559,1:02:52.480
of

1:02:48.799,1:02:53.119
insecure work or very poor wages if

1:02:52.480,1:02:55.200
we're looking

1:02:53.119,1:02:57.280
at aged care undervaluing of work

1:02:55.200,1:02:58.960
they're all significantly important

1:02:57.280,1:03:01.359
things that we can use

1:02:58.960,1:03:02.000
the industrial system to improve wages

1:03:01.359,1:03:03.920
to improve

1:03:02.000,1:03:05.119
conditions and in fact to improve

1:03:03.920,1:03:08.880
security

1:03:05.119,1:03:11.680
from my sector flexibility way too often

1:03:08.880,1:03:13.039
means cutting staff when you feel like

1:03:11.680,1:03:14.319
it rather than they talk about

1:03:13.039,1:03:16.480
flexibility because you might need to

1:03:14.319,1:03:19.760
staff up but that never happens

1:03:16.480,1:03:21.119
so but what is very important for both

1:03:19.760,1:03:22.799
nurses and care workers

1:03:21.119,1:03:25.440
is to fulfill their professional

1:03:22.799,1:03:25.920
objectives and that is to provide the

1:03:25.440,1:03:29.039
best

1:03:25.920,1:03:30.000
care to the person who needs it as they

1:03:29.039,1:03:32.559
need it what they

1:03:30.000,1:03:33.440
need but to realize that professional

1:03:32.559,1:03:35.839
objective

1:03:33.440,1:03:36.960
often needs an industrial measure

1:03:35.839,1:03:38.720
underpinning it

1:03:36.960,1:03:39.839
so it's not just about wages and

1:03:38.720,1:03:41.599
conditions but if we look at the

1:03:39.839,1:03:43.920
situation in aged care

1:03:41.599,1:03:45.839
had we had a better underpinning

1:03:43.920,1:03:46.880
industrial framework we could have

1:03:45.839,1:03:49.760
avoided

1:03:46.880,1:03:52.000
much of the quite honestly much of the

1:03:49.760,1:03:54.559
premature deaths that we've seen

1:03:52.000,1:03:55.760
in victoria because one of the reasons

1:03:54.559,1:03:57.920
that we have

1:03:55.760,1:04:00.640
the unstable employment and people

1:03:57.920,1:04:03.119
needing so many multiple jobs

1:04:00.640,1:04:05.680
is because there's no requirement

1:04:03.119,1:04:07.920
through an agreement or any other law

1:04:05.680,1:04:09.359
for a mandated staffing which is the

1:04:07.920,1:04:12.720
opposite from what we have

1:04:09.359,1:04:14.319
in the health system so an industrial

1:04:12.720,1:04:17.280
arrangement that says how

1:04:14.319,1:04:18.559
and when and what sort of staff we need

1:04:17.280,1:04:20.799
actually can deliver

1:04:18.559,1:04:22.079
improvements to those other aspects and

1:04:20.799,1:04:25.359
ultimately

1:04:22.079,1:04:28.720
what we well i hope we're trying to seek

1:04:25.359,1:04:31.359
equal care for everybody

1:04:28.720,1:04:32.880
thank you annie can i just shift the

1:04:31.359,1:04:36.559
focus for a moment

1:04:32.880,1:04:40.240
and you'll recall when greg barnes spoke

1:04:36.559,1:04:43.119
he spoke of a perfect storm of

1:04:40.240,1:04:45.280
multiple challenges facing us the

1:04:43.119,1:04:49.119
pandemic being one of those

1:04:45.280,1:04:51.200
and climate change being another um

1:04:49.119,1:04:53.440
david petes can i can i ask you to

1:04:51.200,1:04:57.359
comment on what you see

1:04:53.440,1:05:00.000
as the intersection between

1:04:57.359,1:05:01.920
climate change and workplace relations

1:05:00.000,1:05:05.599
reform

1:05:01.920,1:05:07.599
um well particularly in the context of

1:05:05.599,1:05:08.960
what we've been talking about today

1:05:07.599,1:05:11.520
things like

1:05:08.960,1:05:12.319
increase working from home will have a

1:05:11.520,1:05:15.599
fairly

1:05:12.319,1:05:17.039
mechanistic relationship to the no

1:05:15.599,1:05:20.079
the amount of carbon emissions that

1:05:17.039,1:05:22.480
happen so that's that's one

1:05:20.079,1:05:23.119
not very exciting but important aspect

1:05:22.480,1:05:26.240
of it

1:05:23.119,1:05:30.400
but i think there's some common themes

1:05:26.240,1:05:34.319
about how we would go about dealing with

1:05:30.400,1:05:36.640
the current big issue of covert 19

1:05:34.319,1:05:37.680
and the long-term big issue of climate

1:05:36.640,1:05:40.480
change

1:05:37.680,1:05:42.799
a part of it is about putting in the

1:05:40.480,1:05:43.920
right prices the right incentives in

1:05:42.799,1:05:47.520
place

1:05:43.920,1:05:50.640
we we need to have in response to

1:05:47.520,1:05:53.039
the the current crisis uh

1:05:50.640,1:05:55.200
the incentive removing the incentives to

1:05:53.039,1:05:57.440
cut corners and to

1:05:55.200,1:05:59.359
to go to work where you shouldn't be

1:05:57.440,1:06:00.640
going to work or hiring the wrong sort

1:05:59.359,1:06:02.960
of people whatever

1:06:00.640,1:06:03.760
and just as in climate change we need

1:06:02.960,1:06:07.520
the right

1:06:03.760,1:06:11.039
price incentives not to pollute

1:06:07.520,1:06:12.960
to so making sure that the organizations

1:06:11.039,1:06:15.280
pay the full price of any carbon

1:06:12.960,1:06:17.839
emissions

1:06:15.280,1:06:18.640
another common aspect of it is finding

1:06:17.839,1:06:20.720
money

1:06:18.640,1:06:23.280
you've got to get the money out of the

1:06:20.720,1:06:24.960
budget to spend on investment in health

1:06:23.280,1:06:28.799
care on investment

1:06:24.960,1:06:32.400
in technology and jobs for for the

1:06:28.799,1:06:35.760
long term for the climate issues and and

1:06:32.400,1:06:39.839
stop thinking short term start

1:06:35.760,1:06:43.200
preparing now for future pandemics

1:06:39.839,1:06:46.880
and start preparing now for the

1:06:43.200,1:06:49.280
um the importance of re

1:06:46.880,1:06:50.960
reducing and ultimately eliminating

1:06:49.280,1:06:53.839
carbon emissions

1:06:50.960,1:06:55.359
um think now about what investments do

1:06:53.839,1:06:58.480
we need to make in order

1:06:55.359,1:07:01.119
to cut down carbon emissions and there's

1:06:58.480,1:07:03.839
also something about the value of labor

1:07:01.119,1:07:06.000
that um you know francis flanagan who's

1:07:03.839,1:07:08.799
at sydney union was talking about these

1:07:06.000,1:07:10.880
issues of the value of labor

1:07:08.799,1:07:12.799
before we had the covert crisis taught

1:07:10.880,1:07:14.640
him in the context of climate change

1:07:12.799,1:07:16.160
about the importance of different types

1:07:14.640,1:07:18.000
of labor that

1:07:16.160,1:07:20.400
and she's really focusing on the human

1:07:18.000,1:07:22.079
activities that are positively necessary

1:07:20.400,1:07:24.640
for the repair

1:07:22.079,1:07:25.440
renewal and regeneration of our souls

1:07:24.640,1:07:27.599
our oceans

1:07:25.440,1:07:29.680
our cities our critical human systems

1:07:27.599,1:07:31.599
and our human bodies that's a

1:07:29.680,1:07:33.920
a quote from what she was said in an

1:07:31.599,1:07:34.640
article inside story in february last

1:07:33.920,1:07:36.640
year

1:07:34.640,1:07:39.359
and cobra's really made us think a lot

1:07:36.640,1:07:42.960
about the value of socially essential

1:07:39.359,1:07:45.839
labor and we've also got to think about

1:07:42.960,1:07:49.280
what is social essential labor

1:07:45.839,1:07:51.359
in terms of the uh dealing with

1:07:49.280,1:07:52.880
with climate change issues as well so i

1:07:51.359,1:07:53.680
think there's a lot of synergies in how

1:07:52.880,1:07:55.520
we think about

1:07:53.680,1:07:56.720
covert and how we think about climate

1:07:55.520,1:07:58.880
change

1:07:56.720,1:07:59.760
all right thank you david um sally can i

1:07:58.880,1:08:02.319
go to you

1:07:59.760,1:08:03.680
um firstly to if you have any brief

1:08:02.319,1:08:05.280
comments on

1:08:03.680,1:08:08.079
david's observations about the

1:08:05.280,1:08:11.920
intersection with climate change

1:08:08.079,1:08:15.200
and then i'd also want you to comment on

1:08:11.920,1:08:17.759
the further opportunities for

1:08:15.200,1:08:19.679
tripartite cooperation we've heard from

1:08:17.759,1:08:22.239
a number of speakers

1:08:19.679,1:08:24.480
about the importance of a shared vision

1:08:22.239,1:08:26.880
on the way forward and we've had the

1:08:24.480,1:08:29.359
recent experience of the

1:08:26.880,1:08:31.359
uh the particular working groups which

1:08:29.359,1:08:32.799
has started a dialogue around some of

1:08:31.359,1:08:35.679
these issues

1:08:32.799,1:08:36.080
so both on the climate change piece and

1:08:35.679,1:08:38.239
then

1:08:36.080,1:08:40.799
on what are the future prospects for

1:08:38.239,1:08:42.560
tripartite engagement

1:08:40.799,1:08:44.239
uh okay first of all from a different

1:08:42.560,1:08:46.960
perspective um

1:08:44.239,1:08:47.520
on the topic that david's uh commented

1:08:46.960,1:08:49.839
on

1:08:47.520,1:08:52.080
it seems like forever ago but you know

1:08:49.839,1:08:55.199
around this time last year or later

1:08:52.080,1:08:58.560
in the year really in the bush fires of

1:08:55.199,1:08:59.920
um of eastern and also as in western

1:08:58.560,1:09:02.400
australia and the the

1:08:59.920,1:09:03.520
impacts of that and those of you who

1:09:02.400,1:09:06.719
live in sydney will

1:09:03.520,1:09:10.319
will remember being completely coated

1:09:06.719,1:09:11.359
in toxic um ash for weeks and weeks and

1:09:10.319,1:09:13.520
weeks

1:09:11.359,1:09:15.040
and looking back at that time that

1:09:13.520,1:09:15.679
seemed like to be one of the most

1:09:15.040,1:09:18.400
serious

1:09:15.679,1:09:19.520
you know disasters caused by climate

1:09:18.400,1:09:21.759
change that we're dealing with and of

1:09:19.520,1:09:22.719
course that was before the pandemic

1:09:21.759,1:09:24.239
you know there's all questions about

1:09:22.719,1:09:25.440
deforestation and our connection with

1:09:24.239,1:09:27.440
nature but

1:09:25.440,1:09:29.600
um all of a sudden we were dealing with

1:09:27.440,1:09:32.000
health and safety issues that we never

1:09:29.600,1:09:33.920
had thought we'd need to deal with like

1:09:32.000,1:09:34.560
when is it safe to be outside and

1:09:33.920,1:09:36.880
breathe in

1:09:34.560,1:09:38.400
air that was a hundred times more than

1:09:36.880,1:09:41.359
what was considered to be

1:09:38.400,1:09:42.719
completely off the scale toxic um that's

1:09:41.359,1:09:44.640
what we were facing

1:09:42.719,1:09:46.000
then of course you know the natural

1:09:44.640,1:09:48.000
disasters in particular

1:09:46.000,1:09:49.920
in the south coast of new south wales

1:09:48.000,1:09:52.319
and all of those workers who

1:09:49.920,1:09:53.920
um because we're so depend on a

1:09:52.319,1:09:56.320
volunteer workforce

1:09:53.920,1:09:56.960
um you know losing their jobs because of

1:09:56.320,1:09:59.520
that

1:09:56.960,1:10:01.040
and now of course the pandemic so it's

1:09:59.520,1:10:04.320
almost like there's a

1:10:01.040,1:10:08.000
climate change disaster um aspect of

1:10:04.320,1:10:09.360
of industrial relations or our working

1:10:08.000,1:10:10.640
lives that are now going to be a

1:10:09.360,1:10:14.159
permanent feature that

1:10:10.640,1:10:15.600
obviously we didn't all um design

1:10:14.159,1:10:17.679
no one designed when they designed our

1:10:15.600,1:10:18.560
workplace laws so there's that to think

1:10:17.679,1:10:22.239
about

1:10:18.560,1:10:26.719
um on the issue of tripartitism um

1:10:22.239,1:10:28.560
i think it was uh a useful thing for

1:10:26.719,1:10:30.239
you know government and unions and

1:10:28.560,1:10:32.719
employers to get together and have

1:10:30.239,1:10:35.840
discussions and i think that it's been

1:10:32.719,1:10:38.560
too long between drinks so to speak

1:10:35.840,1:10:40.640
so i think that that is a useful thing i

1:10:38.560,1:10:42.640
think in australia though that

1:10:40.640,1:10:44.480
probably both sides but in particular

1:10:42.640,1:10:45.120
maybe the union movement but i say both

1:10:44.480,1:10:49.440
sides

1:10:45.120,1:10:52.159
are is scarred by previous

1:10:49.440,1:10:53.120
experiences like work choices and i

1:10:52.159,1:10:56.640
think that

1:10:53.120,1:11:00.080
it's been difficult for for everyone to

1:10:56.640,1:11:02.960
move on from that because

1:11:00.080,1:11:03.520
some actors on on from all different

1:11:02.960,1:11:06.480
parts

1:11:03.520,1:11:07.679
are still in a way reliving that and i

1:11:06.480,1:11:11.360
think that

1:11:07.679,1:11:13.440
the sooner we can start

1:11:11.360,1:11:15.199
approaching these things from what our

1:11:13.440,1:11:17.360
actual problems are

1:11:15.199,1:11:19.120
like record low wage growth that we had

1:11:17.360,1:11:20.880
prior to the pandemic

1:11:19.120,1:11:22.719
like seeing if we can find common ground

1:11:20.880,1:11:24.000
on the issue of okay if we've got too

1:11:22.719,1:11:26.159
many insecure jobs

1:11:24.000,1:11:27.040
let's just accept it's 20 you know

1:11:26.159,1:11:30.480
whether it's 25

1:11:27.040,1:11:32.000
20 we've got too many um let's do that

1:11:30.480,1:11:35.679
and then say okay

1:11:32.000,1:11:37.760
um how do we go about changing that um

1:11:35.679,1:11:40.000
that that's what we're going to need to

1:11:37.760,1:11:42.640
make some serious step forward uh

1:11:40.000,1:11:44.080
in terms of how how we we go about

1:11:42.640,1:11:45.840
things and that means that

1:11:44.080,1:11:47.600
you know some people have just got to

1:11:45.840,1:11:50.400
move on from 20 30

1:11:47.600,1:11:50.400
40 years ago

1:11:50.640,1:11:56.080
all right can i get firstly jennifer's

1:11:52.880,1:11:59.920
perspective on that and then innocence

1:11:56.080,1:12:02.719
jennifer can i go to you first what

1:11:59.920,1:12:03.120
what scope do you see for building on

1:12:02.719,1:12:06.400
the

1:12:03.120,1:12:08.239
five working group process into perhaps

1:12:06.400,1:12:11.280
a broader discussion

1:12:08.239,1:12:12.640
between the tripartite parties about the

1:12:11.280,1:12:14.080
sort of things you were talking about

1:12:12.640,1:12:18.480
earlier

1:12:14.080,1:12:21.360
how do you get or build a consensus

1:12:18.480,1:12:22.320
based on picking annie's observation for

1:12:21.360,1:12:24.480
example

1:12:22.320,1:12:27.040
some shared understanding about what are

1:12:24.480,1:12:28.640
the broad objectives of the system

1:12:27.040,1:12:29.920
what are the things we have in common

1:12:28.640,1:12:31.199
rather than the things we have that

1:12:29.920,1:12:34.080
divide us

1:12:31.199,1:12:35.040
yeah and i think that what's the

1:12:34.080,1:12:37.600
alternative

1:12:35.040,1:12:38.239
to that to going down that path and

1:12:37.600,1:12:40.640
who's

1:12:38.239,1:12:41.920
who's the stakeholder here i mean the

1:12:40.640,1:12:44.880
stakeholder is

1:12:41.920,1:12:46.480
in the short to medium term that person

1:12:44.880,1:12:48.560
who hasn't got a job

1:12:46.480,1:12:50.080
uh that person who doesn't know whether

1:12:48.560,1:12:52.000
their job's going to come

1:12:50.080,1:12:53.199
back that business that's hanging on by

1:12:52.000,1:12:56.239
a thread

1:12:53.199,1:12:58.640
and i think they expect us to find a way

1:12:56.239,1:13:00.719
to sell his point to kind of let go of

1:12:58.640,1:13:03.920
some stuff from the past and find a way

1:13:00.719,1:13:05.440
of working together so i don't think

1:13:03.920,1:13:06.960
there's an alternative here and i think

1:13:05.440,1:13:08.719
the working groups have allowed people

1:13:06.960,1:13:10.239
to sort of come together to at least

1:13:08.719,1:13:12.880
exchange points of view

1:13:10.239,1:13:14.960
to identify areas of common ground but i

1:13:12.880,1:13:17.840
think the agenda to your point

1:13:14.960,1:13:18.400
is it's got to be bigger than just uh

1:13:17.840,1:13:21.199
you know

1:13:18.400,1:13:22.320
fixing up bits and pieces of the of the

1:13:21.199,1:13:24.800
current system

1:13:22.320,1:13:26.880
we've really got to have a look at the

1:13:24.800,1:13:28.960
the nature of work and the structure of

1:13:26.880,1:13:30.560
work and how we deal with technological

1:13:28.960,1:13:32.000
change and how we make sure that people

1:13:30.560,1:13:33.360
have got good jobs

1:13:32.000,1:13:34.880
we've got to deal with those issues of

1:13:33.360,1:13:36.560
inequality i've talked about and we have

1:13:34.880,1:13:38.719
got to deal with productivity

1:13:36.560,1:13:40.800
we want people to have better wages we

1:13:38.719,1:13:42.640
want them to have higher wages and

1:13:40.800,1:13:45.440
better conditions but

1:13:42.640,1:13:47.199
we can't go back to an economy that's

1:13:45.440,1:13:47.840
growing at less than two percent with

1:13:47.199,1:13:50.880
almost

1:13:47.840,1:13:52.560
zero productivity that is not an economy

1:13:50.880,1:13:54.560
that's going to build secure work it's

1:13:52.560,1:13:56.640
not an economy that's going to pay

1:13:54.560,1:13:58.800
people more and i would love us to be

1:13:56.640,1:14:00.719
collaborating on that and finally

1:13:58.800,1:14:03.360
we are not going to get those things if

1:14:00.719,1:14:05.120
we do not co-design

1:14:03.360,1:14:07.040
a new skill system that's going to

1:14:05.120,1:14:08.560
prepare australians for

1:14:07.040,1:14:10.640
a world of work that is going to

1:14:08.560,1:14:14.159
continuously change and

1:14:10.640,1:14:16.480
cobert has put that really fast

1:14:14.159,1:14:17.840
we have got to find a way of working

1:14:16.480,1:14:20.159
together

1:14:17.840,1:14:21.040
to get a skill system that allows people

1:14:20.159,1:14:23.760
to retrain

1:14:21.040,1:14:25.760
and reskill much more quickly get

1:14:23.760,1:14:27.199
recognition for that so that they stay

1:14:25.760,1:14:29.280
working and they stay working for the

1:14:27.199,1:14:31.600
rest of their lives

1:14:29.280,1:14:32.960
thank you and you know what what's your

1:14:31.600,1:14:35.120
take on this issue

1:14:32.960,1:14:37.360
the five working groups have of

1:14:35.120,1:14:40.000
necessity focus perhaps on

1:14:37.360,1:14:40.719
the minutia of particular areas of

1:14:40.000,1:14:42.480
change

1:14:40.719,1:14:43.920
but there's obviously a broader issue

1:14:42.480,1:14:46.640
here and

1:14:43.920,1:14:48.880
just from listening to the participants

1:14:46.640,1:14:51.280
on the business and union side

1:14:48.880,1:14:53.360
there's clearly an element of shared

1:14:51.280,1:14:56.960
concern and value

1:14:53.360,1:15:00.080
there's a concern and a focus on

1:14:56.960,1:15:01.840
low wages on the need for employment the

1:15:00.080,1:15:03.360
need to provide for re-skilling

1:15:01.840,1:15:06.480
opportunities

1:15:03.360,1:15:08.159
the need to address inequality what do

1:15:06.480,1:15:10.960
you see as the next step

1:15:08.159,1:15:13.520
in taking this sort of tripartite

1:15:10.960,1:15:14.719
discussion forward

1:15:13.520,1:15:17.360
well you know i think you're right

1:15:14.719,1:15:21.040
there's actually um

1:15:17.360,1:15:22.800
the the talks that we've gone through

1:15:21.040,1:15:24.880
for the past few months have been

1:15:22.800,1:15:25.199
necessarily constrained because they

1:15:24.880,1:15:27.520
were

1:15:25.199,1:15:30.000
directed working groups as it were so

1:15:27.520,1:15:32.480
the conversations were

1:15:30.000,1:15:33.520
narrowed down to those specific areas

1:15:32.480,1:15:35.760
around

1:15:33.520,1:15:38.000
enterprise bargaining agreements around

1:15:35.760,1:15:41.199
awards casuals etc

1:15:38.000,1:15:43.199
etc there is much more to talk about and

1:15:41.199,1:15:45.120
much more that we can talk about so this

1:15:43.199,1:15:47.679
has been sort of a narrow

1:15:45.120,1:15:49.600
very narrow ir focused conversation and

1:15:47.679,1:15:51.679
i think every time i talk

1:15:49.600,1:15:53.600
with union officials i mean we come away

1:15:51.679,1:15:55.920
thinking that we actually have more

1:15:53.600,1:15:57.520
that we agree on that we disagree on uh

1:15:55.920,1:16:00.560
it's the old 80 20 rule

1:15:57.520,1:16:01.840
and now the 20 gets blown up it makes

1:16:00.560,1:16:04.159
good copy

1:16:01.840,1:16:04.960
etc etc but there's a lot there that we

1:16:04.159,1:16:06.400
agree on

1:16:04.960,1:16:09.280
and those sort of issues that i talked

1:16:06.400,1:16:11.199
about in my opening around technological

1:16:09.280,1:16:13.199
change and its impact

1:16:11.199,1:16:14.800
on employment those sort of issues the

1:16:13.199,1:16:15.760
ones you just discussed with david

1:16:14.800,1:16:18.800
around

1:16:15.760,1:16:20.480
climate change and the adaption to to

1:16:18.800,1:16:22.239
our changing climate and

1:16:20.480,1:16:24.000
the way that work will have to shift and

1:16:22.239,1:16:25.920
change through that now through the

1:16:24.000,1:16:28.960
pandemic the working from home

1:16:25.920,1:16:30.800
scenario something for instance just to

1:16:28.960,1:16:33.840
pick one area where there's a lot of

1:16:30.800,1:16:35.760
sort of rich pickings there between

1:16:33.840,1:16:36.320
employers and the union movement to

1:16:35.760,1:16:37.840
discuss

1:16:36.320,1:16:40.320
because these are areas of change in

1:16:37.840,1:16:41.280
many ways i agree with where sally was

1:16:40.320,1:16:44.000
you know

1:16:41.280,1:16:46.239
you know work choices sort of has set

1:16:44.000,1:16:49.040
the framework under which we still

1:16:46.239,1:16:50.880
operate uh in many ways because the

1:16:49.040,1:16:52.400
system we now have is was the response

1:16:50.880,1:16:55.360
to work choices

1:16:52.400,1:16:57.040
um and as employers we would argue we

1:16:55.360,1:16:58.400
wouldn't argue that we want to blow up

1:16:57.040,1:17:01.199
the current system

1:16:58.400,1:17:03.440
but we do need it to be able to have the

1:17:01.199,1:17:06.000
agility or the flexibility to adapt

1:17:03.440,1:17:07.840
and change so i think the working groups

1:17:06.000,1:17:09.440
were good because i think from the union

1:17:07.840,1:17:10.080
perspective and i know from talking to

1:17:09.440,1:17:11.840
sally

1:17:10.080,1:17:13.840
and and other union leaders they have

1:17:11.840,1:17:15.360
felt excluded from the process for a

1:17:13.840,1:17:16.640
long time and it's something that we

1:17:15.360,1:17:18.159
have argued

1:17:16.640,1:17:19.679
to government state and federal that

1:17:18.159,1:17:21.679
unions need to be involved and there

1:17:19.679,1:17:23.600
needs to be more tripartism it's not the

1:17:21.679,1:17:25.920
ir club as such at work it's

1:17:23.600,1:17:28.239
just bringing together different voices

1:17:25.920,1:17:30.560
but i think into your point

1:17:28.239,1:17:32.080
you know we can't go into where we think

1:17:30.560,1:17:33.679
these talks will get to and what will

1:17:32.080,1:17:34.640
happen next but i think what it does

1:17:33.679,1:17:37.760
provide is

1:17:34.640,1:17:38.560
the foundation for further discussions

1:17:37.760,1:17:41.840
around

1:17:38.560,1:17:42.719
ir issues in in part but also those

1:17:41.840,1:17:44.880
broader

1:17:42.719,1:17:47.120
socioeconomic issues that do go to

1:17:44.880,1:17:48.640
fairness that do go to wages that do go

1:17:47.120,1:17:50.960
to productivity

1:17:48.640,1:17:51.920
all of those issues and how can we work

1:17:50.960,1:17:53.360
through

1:17:51.920,1:17:55.760
how how can we work through those

1:17:53.360,1:17:56.719
conversations the issue always for a lot

1:17:55.760,1:17:59.600
of employers

1:17:56.719,1:18:01.440
and union leaders too is that we we talk

1:17:59.600,1:18:03.120
at the high level at the macro level but

1:18:01.440,1:18:04.239
a lot of the activity happens down on

1:18:03.120,1:18:07.040
the ground

1:18:04.239,1:18:08.800
uh maybe slightly separate to those sort

1:18:07.040,1:18:10.640
of high level conversations so it's how

1:18:08.800,1:18:12.000
do we get those high level conversations

1:18:10.640,1:18:14.560
and the impact of those

1:18:12.000,1:18:16.400
to have an impact down on the ground as

1:18:14.560,1:18:18.000
well in a realistic way and i think

1:18:16.400,1:18:21.199
that's a big challenge

1:18:18.000,1:18:23.679
that we face as well so look

1:18:21.199,1:18:25.360
i i we can't really go into where this

1:18:23.679,1:18:26.800
will go from here but i'm optimistic

1:18:25.360,1:18:28.800
that at the very

1:18:26.800,1:18:30.000
least this has put a platform in place

1:18:28.800,1:18:32.239
that we can

1:18:30.000,1:18:33.280
that we can work from the last point i'd

1:18:32.239,1:18:35.760
make it in is that

1:18:33.280,1:18:36.640
you know we talk about low wages i would

1:18:35.760,1:18:39.120
argue

1:18:36.640,1:18:40.159
that relatively relatively we're a

1:18:39.120,1:18:42.719
high-wage country

1:18:40.159,1:18:43.920
and there's there's many bits of data to

1:18:42.719,1:18:46.159
point to that

1:18:43.920,1:18:47.280
but we're also a high-cost country so

1:18:46.159,1:18:49.360
how do we

1:18:47.280,1:18:50.880
how do we manage that and how do we how

1:18:49.360,1:18:52.640
do we work that through i don't think

1:18:50.880,1:18:54.960
there's anyone

1:18:52.640,1:18:56.800
sensible and that would be really anyone

1:18:54.960,1:18:58.000
on the employer side who's sort of going

1:18:56.800,1:19:00.480
out there arguing saying

1:18:58.000,1:19:01.199
we need to cut wages that's not the

1:19:00.480,1:19:03.840
that's not

1:19:01.199,1:19:04.960
the argument that we've that is being

1:19:03.840,1:19:07.199
put forward at all

1:19:04.960,1:19:08.960
touching on what jennifer was saying is

1:19:07.199,1:19:11.760
how do we get more productivity

1:19:08.960,1:19:13.120
in a fair way out of what is paid that's

1:19:11.760,1:19:14.000
really what the uh that's what the

1:19:13.120,1:19:15.760
argument is

1:19:14.000,1:19:17.920
is really around but i think we have the

1:19:15.760,1:19:20.000
platform to work from that's probably

1:19:17.920,1:19:23.440
one of the silver linings of this

1:19:20.000,1:19:25.520
pandemic if there are silver linings

1:19:23.440,1:19:27.840
thank you enos annie can i go to you

1:19:25.520,1:19:30.800
just about the broad issue of

1:19:27.840,1:19:32.719
um what do you think the future of work

1:19:30.800,1:19:35.600
is likely to hold

1:19:32.719,1:19:38.000
and what do you hope it holds so what's

1:19:35.600,1:19:39.760
your aspiration and what do you think

1:19:38.000,1:19:42.400
might be the reality in the in the

1:19:39.760,1:19:44.800
period ahead

1:19:42.400,1:19:46.320
uh thank you for that very broad

1:19:44.800,1:19:50.080
question

1:19:46.320,1:19:51.120
um i guess what from our perspective for

1:19:50.080,1:19:53.120
our members that

1:19:51.120,1:19:55.760
we would hope that the future of work

1:19:53.120,1:20:00.320
holds security

1:19:55.760,1:20:02.719
and um uh security and fulfillment

1:20:00.320,1:20:04.000
and i think again i'm coming from it

1:20:02.719,1:20:06.000
from a different lens

1:20:04.000,1:20:08.320
rather from inside the system out but

1:20:06.000,1:20:10.639
outside this is what can we use

1:20:08.320,1:20:11.920
how can we use the system to achieve

1:20:10.639,1:20:14.719
what we want because

1:20:11.920,1:20:16.400
measures of productivity and economic

1:20:14.719,1:20:17.520
growth are important but they're hard to

1:20:16.400,1:20:20.320
apply to someone

1:20:17.520,1:20:21.360
an aged care setting what increased

1:20:20.320,1:20:24.480
productivity

1:20:21.360,1:20:27.199
do we want out of a nursing home so

1:20:24.480,1:20:29.920
it's about again what what is it that

1:20:27.199,1:20:33.040
we're valuing and trying to achieve

1:20:29.920,1:20:35.520
and so then if if where

1:20:33.040,1:20:36.480
we agreed we agreed some time ago 40

1:20:35.520,1:20:38.639
years ago as a

1:20:36.480,1:20:39.840
as a nation that we would pull our

1:20:38.639,1:20:42.080
resources

1:20:39.840,1:20:43.600
and fund medicare and because we had

1:20:42.080,1:20:44.960
agreed vision that everyone should have

1:20:43.600,1:20:46.639
equal access to health care

1:20:44.960,1:20:48.000
it's not perfect you know many things

1:20:46.639,1:20:49.840
wrong but it's not bad

1:20:48.000,1:20:51.840
we haven't made that decision around

1:20:49.840,1:20:53.280
what is our purpose what do we want from

1:20:51.840,1:20:57.040
aged care

1:20:53.280,1:20:58.560
consequently we don't have secure work

1:20:57.040,1:21:00.239
we don't have fulfilling work we don't

1:20:58.560,1:21:01.920
have valued work and we don't have an

1:21:00.239,1:21:04.159
industrial relations system

1:21:01.920,1:21:05.520
that is actually trying to achieve that

1:21:04.159,1:21:08.560
i would argue

1:21:05.520,1:21:12.239
at present so i think

1:21:08.560,1:21:14.560
in that area the future of

1:21:12.239,1:21:16.239
and that we could extend that not just

1:21:14.560,1:21:17.199
from there but to the care sector

1:21:16.239,1:21:20.480
generally

1:21:17.199,1:21:21.199
i think we need to consider how women's

1:21:20.480,1:21:22.719
work

1:21:21.199,1:21:24.000
traditional i mean i don't want to have

1:21:22.719,1:21:26.000
to call it this but it's seen as

1:21:24.000,1:21:28.480
traditional women's work because

1:21:26.000,1:21:29.120
it's care work that how that can be

1:21:28.480,1:21:32.639
valued

1:21:29.120,1:21:35.520
equally across the board and that then

1:21:32.639,1:21:36.159
be supported by an industrial framework

1:21:35.520,1:21:40.000
that will

1:21:36.159,1:21:42.400
achieve safety security and fulfillment

1:21:40.000,1:21:44.239
which will then necessarily what i

1:21:42.400,1:21:45.040
always say if you have a safe and secure

1:21:44.239,1:21:47.040
worker

1:21:45.040,1:21:49.840
you're going to have a safe and secure

1:21:47.040,1:21:51.600
care recipient

1:21:49.840,1:21:53.760
thank you annie geraldine can i get you

1:21:51.600,1:21:56.719
to take up this same theme

1:21:53.760,1:21:58.880
about what the future of work might hold

1:21:56.719,1:22:00.800
we've seen during the pandemic a point

1:21:58.880,1:22:03.280
david touched on earlier

1:22:00.800,1:22:04.480
the acceleration of some trends that had

1:22:03.280,1:22:06.800
been evident

1:22:04.480,1:22:09.679
in the workforce and working from home

1:22:06.800,1:22:11.920
perhaps the most obvious of those

1:22:09.679,1:22:13.600
we've also seen some hospitality

1:22:11.920,1:22:15.920
businesses pivot

1:22:13.600,1:22:18.239
and doing more takeaway and meal

1:22:15.920,1:22:21.440
delivery services

1:22:18.239,1:22:22.719
what do you see in the areas that you've

1:22:21.440,1:22:26.239
been discussing

1:22:22.719,1:22:28.719
that the future might hold well look um

1:22:26.239,1:22:29.280
at the risk of of going back to ancient

1:22:28.719,1:22:31.520
greece

1:22:29.280,1:22:33.120
uh as ron did and being a bit of a

1:22:31.520,1:22:35.360
cassandra

1:22:33.120,1:22:37.120
i would say that i'm quite worried about

1:22:35.360,1:22:38.639
what the future looks like because i can

1:22:37.120,1:22:41.440
hear

1:22:38.639,1:22:42.080
my kind of work being very well looked

1:22:41.440,1:22:43.760
after

1:22:42.080,1:22:46.239
the kind of work that can be done at

1:22:43.760,1:22:49.440
home that david talked about

1:22:46.239,1:22:50.159
but i can hear the kind of work that

1:22:49.440,1:22:52.159
perhaps

1:22:50.159,1:22:54.080
annie is talking about can never be done

1:22:52.159,1:22:55.280
at home unless it's in somebody else's

1:22:54.080,1:22:57.360
home

1:22:55.280,1:22:59.440
and certainly those food delivery

1:22:57.360,1:23:02.719
drivers you're talking about

1:22:59.440,1:23:03.760
you i i worry that inequality is going

1:23:02.719,1:23:06.159
to be driven even

1:23:03.760,1:23:07.760
further apart that we'll have

1:23:06.159,1:23:09.040
comfortable people who keep their

1:23:07.760,1:23:11.840
incomes and can

1:23:09.040,1:23:12.639
can what this horrible word pivot with

1:23:11.840,1:23:14.639
the

1:23:12.639,1:23:15.920
the virus and then we'll have other

1:23:14.639,1:23:18.880
people who are

1:23:15.920,1:23:19.600
forced into an even more dire form of

1:23:18.880,1:23:21.600
serfdom

1:23:19.600,1:23:23.520
and that really worries me and i do

1:23:21.600,1:23:24.880
think our labor law system as it's

1:23:23.520,1:23:27.440
evolved

1:23:24.880,1:23:28.320
allowing such a widespread use of casual

1:23:27.440,1:23:31.120
work

1:23:28.320,1:23:33.040
and independent contracting has

1:23:31.120,1:23:36.239
contributed to that

1:23:33.040,1:23:38.000
and i worry when i hear

1:23:36.239,1:23:39.679
business leaders saying well we can't

1:23:38.000,1:23:40.719
change that unless there's greater

1:23:39.679,1:23:43.120
growth

1:23:40.719,1:23:45.520
because i ask myself whatever happened

1:23:43.120,1:23:46.960
to the notion of redistributing some of

1:23:45.520,1:23:51.440
the wealth that we actually

1:23:46.960,1:23:55.040
have and i see stories in the

1:23:51.440,1:23:58.480
sydney morning herald about aged care

1:23:55.040,1:24:02.719
owners driving lamborghinis

1:23:58.480,1:24:06.000
and i see the people who are

1:24:02.719,1:24:07.920
managing the delivery services i won't

1:24:06.000,1:24:10.560
mention the particular one

1:24:07.920,1:24:13.120
getting cartier watches as little thank

1:24:10.560,1:24:17.360
yous i don't see the postmen getting

1:24:13.120,1:24:19.920
cartier watches as thank yous i worry

1:24:17.360,1:24:21.280
we're leading to greater inequality and

1:24:19.920,1:24:23.520
unless we look at some of those

1:24:21.280,1:24:26.400
really fundamental things it's not going

1:24:23.520,1:24:26.400
to get any better

1:24:26.719,1:24:31.520
all right thank you david you touched on

1:24:30.000,1:24:34.719
working from home and the research that

1:24:31.520,1:24:38.000
you've been doing in that space recently

1:24:34.719,1:24:40.800
and it shows a diversity of views about

1:24:38.000,1:24:41.920
a desire to work from home and how many

1:24:40.800,1:24:43.679
days

1:24:41.920,1:24:45.280
and you also spoke about some of the

1:24:43.679,1:24:47.199
challenges

1:24:45.280,1:24:48.639
how do you think you strike that balance

1:24:47.199,1:24:51.040
between

1:24:48.639,1:24:52.960
um giving providing an opportunity for

1:24:51.040,1:24:55.600
those who

1:24:52.960,1:24:57.440
have a genuine preference for working

1:24:55.600,1:24:58.639
from home on a number of days in the

1:24:57.440,1:25:01.679
week

1:24:58.639,1:25:01.679
and providing

1:25:02.159,1:25:07.760
some security and safety for those who

1:25:06.239,1:25:09.760
don't want to be working from home

1:25:07.760,1:25:12.800
continuously

1:25:09.760,1:25:14.159
yeah well i think it's not easy and i

1:25:12.800,1:25:16.239
think that's one of

1:25:14.159,1:25:18.080
one of the issues that it's very

1:25:16.239,1:25:21.120
difficult for us to

1:25:18.080,1:25:23.440
sit on high and and come up with some

1:25:21.120,1:25:24.159
determination as to what's the best way

1:25:23.440,1:25:26.719
of doing it

1:25:24.159,1:25:29.280
ultimately what it requires is

1:25:26.719,1:25:31.840
discussions at the most local level

1:25:29.280,1:25:33.600
between the employers and the employees

1:25:31.840,1:25:36.080
and their representatives as to

1:25:33.600,1:25:37.679
what's best what suits the organization

1:25:36.080,1:25:40.000
best what suits the employees

1:25:37.679,1:25:41.360
what's the best compromise we can we can

1:25:40.000,1:25:44.800
reach out of that

1:25:41.360,1:25:47.600
it's it's very hard i think apart from

1:25:44.800,1:25:49.600
maintaining some sorts of protections in

1:25:47.600,1:25:51.600
there through the regulatory framework

1:25:49.600,1:25:53.360
for us to come out and say

1:25:51.600,1:25:55.520
it should be done this way and i think

1:25:53.360,1:25:56.560
it's very hard for any individual party

1:25:55.520,1:25:58.400
to just say

1:25:56.560,1:26:00.040
it has to be done this way it really

1:25:58.400,1:26:03.120
does require

1:26:00.040,1:26:04.000
negotiations and discussions tripartism

1:26:03.120,1:26:08.480
at the

1:26:04.000,1:26:10.480
at the sm the lowest level really

1:26:08.480,1:26:12.480
jennifer can i go back to you on this

1:26:10.480,1:26:15.840
issue of productivity

1:26:12.480,1:26:16.239
and i think it would be generally agreed

1:26:15.840,1:26:19.360
that

1:26:16.239,1:26:21.120
productivity growth is is what underpins

1:26:19.360,1:26:22.800
our living standards and our improvement

1:26:21.120,1:26:24.960
in our living standards

1:26:22.800,1:26:27.600
but you've heard from any about the

1:26:24.960,1:26:30.560
challenges of measuring productivity

1:26:27.600,1:26:31.120
in particular sectors of the economy and

1:26:30.560,1:26:34.639
of course

1:26:31.120,1:26:37.600
productivity is impacted by a range of

1:26:34.639,1:26:39.199
particular measures and levers and it's

1:26:37.600,1:26:42.239
not simply

1:26:39.199,1:26:44.320
i'm not suggesting that

1:26:42.239,1:26:45.520
the industrial relations framework isn't

1:26:44.320,1:26:47.760
a component of it

1:26:45.520,1:26:50.159
but there are obviously other components

1:26:47.760,1:26:52.480
what do you see is necessary to

1:26:50.159,1:26:54.960
lift our productivity performance sure

1:26:52.480,1:26:57.360
well first of all can i just say that um

1:26:54.960,1:26:58.239
i totally agree with annie about the

1:26:57.360,1:27:01.360
care sector

1:26:58.239,1:27:02.000
i think i mean one thing that i think we

1:27:01.360,1:27:06.080
have to

1:27:02.000,1:27:07.600
stop post or you know as we get out of

1:27:06.080,1:27:09.679
cobra 19

1:27:07.600,1:27:11.360
is to really look at the the sectors

1:27:09.679,1:27:14.239
where you've got

1:27:11.360,1:27:16.080
some real stresses and obviously some of

1:27:14.239,1:27:18.400
those are gender specific

1:27:16.080,1:27:20.000
and and look at to annie's point the

1:27:18.400,1:27:22.960
value we're placing in

1:27:20.000,1:27:24.880
on that those sectors and make sure that

1:27:22.960,1:27:25.679
those sectors are fit for purpose going

1:27:24.880,1:27:27.760
forward

1:27:25.679,1:27:29.440
and i agree it's it's you know what are

1:27:27.760,1:27:32.320
the measures of productivity

1:27:29.440,1:27:33.840
uh in a sector like aged care and i

1:27:32.320,1:27:35.920
think we've got to be very careful

1:27:33.840,1:27:38.960
that productivity is not about and

1:27:35.920,1:27:40.960
certainly not not what i'm arguing for

1:27:38.960,1:27:42.000
people working harder for less money it

1:27:40.960,1:27:44.560
is about

1:27:42.000,1:27:46.000
doing things better smarter being able

1:27:44.560,1:27:48.560
to expand and so

1:27:46.000,1:27:50.400
to that point what are the things that

1:27:48.560,1:27:53.120
drive productivity well clearly

1:27:50.400,1:27:55.120
skills is crucial for that uh making

1:27:53.120,1:27:57.920
sure that people have the right skills

1:27:55.120,1:27:59.840
to do the jobs the right skills to stay

1:27:57.920,1:28:02.080
working and i would say any in the aged

1:27:59.840,1:28:05.280
care sector there is a massive need

1:28:02.080,1:28:07.840
for a huge injection of investment

1:28:05.280,1:28:09.520
into skilling up uh people in the aged

1:28:07.840,1:28:11.120
care sector

1:28:09.520,1:28:12.719
the second thing of course is business

1:28:11.120,1:28:16.080
investment now

1:28:12.719,1:28:17.280
you know this is simply a reality that

1:28:16.080,1:28:20.800
if we want

1:28:17.280,1:28:23.199
uh innovation uh if we want expansion

1:28:20.800,1:28:25.040
you need businesses to be investing and

1:28:23.199,1:28:27.199
they need the right incentives

1:28:25.040,1:28:28.080
to do that so you're absolutely right

1:28:27.199,1:28:30.880
ian ir

1:28:28.080,1:28:31.280
is not the only libra for productivity

1:28:30.880,1:28:33.280
uh

1:28:31.280,1:28:35.199
investment is a huge part of that and

1:28:33.280,1:28:36.800
skills is a massive part of that and i

1:28:35.199,1:28:38.560
think our skill system

1:28:36.800,1:28:40.639
albeit you know we've made some good

1:28:38.560,1:28:43.600
changes recently it is just not

1:28:40.639,1:28:45.840
up to the task it is too hard it's too

1:28:43.600,1:28:47.360
complicated it's too expensive the tafe

1:28:45.840,1:28:48.639
system has been allowed to fall into

1:28:47.360,1:28:50.400
disrepair

1:28:48.639,1:28:51.840
and you know if we're serious about

1:28:50.400,1:28:53.760
productivity and we're serious about

1:28:51.840,1:28:57.199
getting the country going again

1:28:53.760,1:28:59.920
we'll absolutely get cracking on skills

1:28:57.199,1:29:02.159
sally can i just get your perspective on

1:28:59.920,1:29:04.719
the broad question of productivity

1:29:02.159,1:29:06.480
and also the specific issues that

1:29:04.719,1:29:10.080
jennifer's raised

1:29:06.480,1:29:10.960
and the skill need and the need to

1:29:10.080,1:29:13.280
provide

1:29:10.960,1:29:14.239
a framework for ongoing skill

1:29:13.280,1:29:17.840
development

1:29:14.239,1:29:21.120
as we're in a rapidly changing world

1:29:17.840,1:29:23.520
firstly i make the point that

1:29:21.120,1:29:25.040
out of the oecd the most productive

1:29:23.520,1:29:27.760
countries nearly all of them

1:29:25.040,1:29:28.159
have a collective bargaining system that

1:29:27.760,1:29:31.920
isn't

1:29:28.159,1:29:34.880
enterprise only and i think that our

1:29:31.920,1:29:36.560
restrictions on collective bargaining so

1:29:34.880,1:29:38.320
that you've only really got one option

1:29:36.560,1:29:40.639
and that's enterprise only

1:29:38.320,1:29:43.440
actually inhibits where we've got to go

1:29:40.639,1:29:45.840
and the reason why i say that is because

1:29:43.440,1:29:46.719
too often enterprise bargaining leaves

1:29:45.840,1:29:49.920
um

1:29:46.719,1:29:51.360
unions or workers and employers in

1:29:49.920,1:29:54.320
conflict over wages

1:29:51.360,1:29:55.360
and unable then to be able to look at

1:29:54.320,1:29:57.360
some of the bigger

1:29:55.360,1:29:58.880
issues often than ones where you've got

1:29:57.360,1:30:00.800
common ground because

1:29:58.880,1:30:01.920
you've got this area that you're having

1:30:00.800,1:30:04.239
combat over

1:30:01.920,1:30:06.000
and so the benefit of a system where

1:30:04.239,1:30:08.639
you're able to

1:30:06.000,1:30:09.360
settle those issues that are common

1:30:08.639,1:30:11.280
across a

1:30:09.360,1:30:12.560
sector in terms of wages for example in

1:30:11.280,1:30:15.600
the aged care sector

1:30:12.560,1:30:18.639
um and then sit down with employers

1:30:15.600,1:30:20.159
individually and and say okay

1:30:18.639,1:30:21.679
how can we address the issue of

1:30:20.159,1:30:23.679
productivity here

1:30:21.679,1:30:25.280
knowing that those basic things aren't

1:30:23.679,1:30:26.239
under threat leads to better

1:30:25.280,1:30:28.960
conversations

1:30:26.239,1:30:30.480
and leads to better outcomes also then

1:30:28.960,1:30:32.560
when you're dealing with things on an

1:30:30.480,1:30:34.800
industry level it allows you

1:30:32.560,1:30:37.199
as the industry partners to be able to

1:30:34.800,1:30:39.600
talk about also those bigger issues of

1:30:37.199,1:30:40.800
of skills and what what are we going to

1:30:39.600,1:30:42.800
need in the future

1:30:40.800,1:30:43.840
what are our plans how are we going to

1:30:42.800,1:30:46.880
go about this

1:30:43.840,1:30:49.040
so um

1:30:46.880,1:30:50.080
again it's not just because you know

1:30:49.040,1:30:51.840
look at the evidence

1:30:50.080,1:30:54.000
look at the evidence of those countries

1:30:51.840,1:30:54.960
that have higher productivity as well as

1:30:54.000,1:30:57.840
a better

1:30:54.960,1:30:59.360
share labor share of um the overall

1:30:57.840,1:31:02.239
wealth of the country so

1:30:59.360,1:31:03.920
better off overall are in a situation

1:31:02.239,1:31:05.440
where that where they had that

1:31:03.920,1:31:07.600
too often in our country going to the

1:31:05.440,1:31:09.040
issue of skills and going to the issue

1:31:07.600,1:31:12.560
of productivity

1:31:09.040,1:31:14.320
it makes it easy or a path of

1:31:12.560,1:31:16.320
least resistance to take the lazy

1:31:14.320,1:31:17.920
options and the lazy options of saying

1:31:16.320,1:31:18.639
well let's just outsource the labor

1:31:17.920,1:31:22.800
higher

1:31:18.639,1:31:24.639
let's just um use the visa system to

1:31:22.800,1:31:26.800
to avoid having to do what we've got to

1:31:24.639,1:31:28.960
do in our country the hard work

1:31:26.800,1:31:30.560
of increasing skills and increasing

1:31:28.960,1:31:31.440
productivity if you've got all of these

1:31:30.560,1:31:34.560
other ways

1:31:31.440,1:31:37.040
of reducing costs

1:31:34.560,1:31:39.440
and it leads to i think lazy management

1:31:37.040,1:31:42.639
decisions

1:31:39.440,1:31:44.560
can i just get your perspective on this

1:31:42.639,1:31:45.679
conversation around productivity and

1:31:44.560,1:31:48.239
skills

1:31:45.679,1:31:49.280
as the manufacturing sector is being

1:31:48.239,1:31:52.400
seen as

1:31:49.280,1:31:55.520
uh one of the pathways out of the uh

1:31:52.400,1:31:58.239
economic consequences of the pandemic

1:31:55.520,1:32:00.480
and what's your perspective on the

1:31:58.239,1:32:01.360
skills framework we've got is it fit for

1:32:00.480,1:32:04.800
purpose

1:32:01.360,1:32:06.400
what changes do we need to make

1:32:04.800,1:32:08.080
well you know i think jennifer touched

1:32:06.400,1:32:08.800
on a little bit no the current skills

1:32:08.080,1:32:10.639
framework

1:32:08.800,1:32:14.320
isn't fit for purpose and hasn't been

1:32:10.639,1:32:16.719
for a long time it's not delivering

1:32:14.320,1:32:18.320
the potential workforce nor the current

1:32:16.719,1:32:20.800
workforce in many ways that

1:32:18.320,1:32:22.320
employers are needing and wanting and

1:32:20.800,1:32:24.320
there's a couple of reasons for this and

1:32:22.320,1:32:27.360
it goes back through the education

1:32:24.320,1:32:29.040
system this is not an ir issue this is a

1:32:27.360,1:32:30.880
much broader issue than that it goes

1:32:29.040,1:32:32.639
back through the education system

1:32:30.880,1:32:35.600
what we're teaching how we're teaching

1:32:32.639,1:32:37.920
it where we're encouraging people to go

1:32:35.600,1:32:39.440
one of the big laments of employers for

1:32:37.920,1:32:42.480
instance at the moment

1:32:39.440,1:32:43.199
is um in areas like construction i just

1:32:42.480,1:32:46.159
can't get

1:32:43.199,1:32:48.080
um girls interested in that sector or

1:32:46.159,1:32:51.120
engineering for instance

1:32:48.080,1:32:52.719
and it's and it's be and you see hearing

1:32:51.120,1:32:54.320
a lot of employers saying

1:32:52.719,1:32:57.120
they're not taking up their quota of

1:32:54.320,1:32:59.920
graduates because they're missing out

1:32:57.120,1:33:02.159
on girls and girls will help inform

1:32:59.920,1:33:04.000
cultural change within organizations

1:33:02.159,1:33:06.719
they change perspectives

1:33:04.000,1:33:08.239
um and we and we're dismissing that and

1:33:06.719,1:33:10.239
why are we missing that we're missing it

1:33:08.239,1:33:11.360
because at some point in the education

1:33:10.239,1:33:13.520
system

1:33:11.360,1:33:14.400
girls are being directed in another way

1:33:13.520,1:33:16.159
uh and

1:33:14.400,1:33:18.639
you know we've got to fix those sort of

1:33:16.159,1:33:22.000
problems around careers counselling

1:33:18.639,1:33:24.400
and the lie and so that's that's one

1:33:22.000,1:33:26.080
point i just made secondly around the

1:33:24.400,1:33:29.520
skill system itself

1:33:26.080,1:33:30.800
you know it we need to upgrade it and

1:33:29.520,1:33:33.920
adapt

1:33:30.800,1:33:36.080
our training um there's a term i like to

1:33:33.920,1:33:39.840
use which i've picked up from others

1:33:36.080,1:33:41.920
which is that we need to develop

1:33:39.840,1:33:42.960
employees with what are called new

1:33:41.920,1:33:44.719
collar skills

1:33:42.960,1:33:47.120
combination of white and blue collar

1:33:44.719,1:33:48.880
skills the technological skills of the

1:33:47.120,1:33:52.400
future

1:33:48.880,1:33:54.880
to do the process processes that we need

1:33:52.400,1:33:55.440
to have run to be able to work in a

1:33:54.880,1:33:57.520
digital

1:33:55.440,1:33:58.800
economy all of those sort of things

1:33:57.520,1:34:00.880
they're the sort of skills that we

1:33:58.800,1:34:02.880
really need to pick up and run with

1:34:00.880,1:34:04.000
now when we and we're not doing that and

1:34:02.880,1:34:06.159
all of that will play into

1:34:04.000,1:34:07.840
productivity and all of those jobs will

1:34:06.159,1:34:12.080
be high paying

1:34:07.840,1:34:14.480
um very rewarding um employment

1:34:12.080,1:34:15.679
for people so i think this goes back

1:34:14.480,1:34:18.639
beyond the

1:34:15.679,1:34:19.360
beyond the ir framework sally made the

1:34:18.639,1:34:21.600
point around

1:34:19.360,1:34:23.199
you know maybe taking the lazy option i

1:34:21.600,1:34:24.800
wouldn't call it the lazy option i'd

1:34:23.199,1:34:28.080
call it the option

1:34:24.800,1:34:29.520
of grazed ease for employers in some

1:34:28.080,1:34:30.639
ways because they just don't have the

1:34:29.520,1:34:34.000
pool of labor

1:34:30.639,1:34:36.960
that they need on the whole

1:34:34.000,1:34:39.199
to develop the economy of the future so

1:34:36.960,1:34:41.280
manufacturing is going down that path

1:34:39.199,1:34:44.080
your righty and it has been

1:34:41.280,1:34:45.280
a rock right through the pandemic thus

1:34:44.080,1:34:48.239
far relatively

1:34:45.280,1:34:49.440
but gradually surely but surely it is

1:34:48.239,1:34:52.560
going down the path

1:34:49.440,1:34:53.119
of higher skills being required the days

1:34:52.560,1:34:54.960
of sort of

1:34:53.119,1:34:57.760
sawdust floors are gone it's

1:34:54.960,1:35:00.320
technologically based it's

1:34:57.760,1:35:02.080
very advanced engineering robotics et

1:35:00.320,1:35:04.320
cetera et cetera is going into it

1:35:02.080,1:35:06.400
you need highly skilled people so my

1:35:04.320,1:35:06.800
concern going back to the schools agenda

1:35:06.400,1:35:09.280
is

1:35:06.800,1:35:10.320
as things are set up we're going to miss

1:35:09.280,1:35:12.880
a lot of people

1:35:10.320,1:35:14.480
um and that's where the issues of

1:35:12.880,1:35:16.320
inequality come in

1:35:14.480,1:35:18.800
and that's so we need to address these

1:35:16.320,1:35:22.239
issues now coming out of the pandemic

1:35:18.800,1:35:24.320
so that we do reduce

1:35:22.239,1:35:25.679
the levels of inequality that we have

1:35:24.320,1:35:27.840
and will continue to have

1:35:25.679,1:35:30.000
and will perhaps unfortunately grow

1:35:27.840,1:35:31.280
unless we grow that skills base

1:35:30.000,1:35:32.800
so it's about trying to provide

1:35:31.280,1:35:34.000
opportunity to people through the

1:35:32.800,1:35:35.679
education system

1:35:34.000,1:35:37.679
and the training system that's where we

1:35:35.679,1:35:39.840
need to look

1:35:37.679,1:35:42.080
all right thank you so i think we're

1:35:39.840,1:35:44.320
almost at the point where

1:35:42.080,1:35:45.520
i'll throw back to james fleming who

1:35:44.320,1:35:49.360
will be

1:35:45.520,1:35:50.880
taking some questions from our audience

1:35:49.360,1:35:52.400
thank you justice ross that was a

1:35:50.880,1:35:54.159
magnificent debate indeed

1:35:52.400,1:35:55.760
i've got a few questions here in the

1:35:54.159,1:35:56.000
feed so just a last chance for anyone

1:35:55.760,1:35:58.400
who

1:35:56.000,1:35:59.520
wants to ask a question you'll see

1:35:58.400,1:36:01.520
there's a questions tab

1:35:59.520,1:36:03.119
next to the live feed but i'm just going

1:36:01.520,1:36:05.360
through what we've got so far

1:36:03.119,1:36:06.880
i've got one here about productivity

1:36:05.360,1:36:09.119
which you spoke about in us so perhaps

1:36:06.880,1:36:10.960
i'll put this question to you

1:36:09.119,1:36:12.719
when you discuss productivity this is

1:36:10.960,1:36:14.800
from karen douglas by the way

1:36:12.719,1:36:16.880
when you discuss productivity you need

1:36:14.800,1:36:18.320
to factor in the crucial social support

1:36:16.880,1:36:20.239
and care services

1:36:18.320,1:36:22.560
disability support workers aged care

1:36:20.239,1:36:23.920
workers child care educators who care

1:36:22.560,1:36:24.800
for us and are developing the next

1:36:23.920,1:36:26.880
generation

1:36:24.800,1:36:28.639
yet many many are women and all are low

1:36:26.880,1:36:30.239
paid how will productivity for these

1:36:28.639,1:36:32.159
support and care services

1:36:30.239,1:36:34.400
be valued in a post-covered society and

1:36:32.159,1:36:36.080
economy and any uh touch on this as well

1:36:34.400,1:36:38.880
but perhaps we get your response

1:36:36.080,1:36:39.520
uh yes um a little bit with uh where

1:36:38.880,1:36:41.679
jennifer

1:36:39.520,1:36:43.679
was with her answer too we have to look

1:36:41.679,1:36:44.960
at productivity in different ways across

1:36:43.679,1:36:48.639
different

1:36:44.960,1:36:51.600
sectors um and but industry is our

1:36:48.639,1:36:53.760
whole all industry is looking

1:36:51.600,1:36:56.800
necessarily to become more efficient

1:36:53.760,1:36:58.560
in the way that it works um that's for

1:36:56.800,1:37:02.080
competitive reasons

1:36:58.560,1:37:03.920
uh it's for um it is for reasons of

1:37:02.080,1:37:06.320
increasing

1:37:03.920,1:37:06.960
production all of those sort of issues

1:37:06.320,1:37:09.920
but each

1:37:06.960,1:37:12.080
sector is different um and but

1:37:09.920,1:37:15.840
productivity increased productivity

1:37:12.080,1:37:18.400
does not necessarily equate to less jobs

1:37:15.840,1:37:20.480
um increased productivity in many cases

1:37:18.400,1:37:22.320
where

1:37:20.480,1:37:23.760
companies have gone down the path of

1:37:22.320,1:37:25.679
automation

1:37:23.760,1:37:27.119
for instance as a productivity driver

1:37:25.679,1:37:29.360
have have actually led to

1:37:27.119,1:37:31.760
increased jobs within the workplace it

1:37:29.360,1:37:34.960
is a fairly regular occurrence

1:37:31.760,1:37:38.239
so we are sort of stuck in a cycle here

1:37:34.960,1:37:40.320
we still are where productivity

1:37:38.239,1:37:42.480
to use it in the innovation sense is

1:37:40.320,1:37:45.520
seen as a job

1:37:42.480,1:37:47.119
job killer not a job developer and all

1:37:45.520,1:37:49.440
this ties back into the

1:37:47.119,1:37:50.239
education and i'm with you karen the

1:37:49.440,1:37:54.239
people most

1:37:50.239,1:37:57.360
impacted by this downturn are the young

1:37:54.239,1:37:59.280
and fa and female and we have to find

1:37:57.360,1:38:02.560
ways to get them

1:37:59.280,1:38:03.440
a into the workplace and be back into

1:38:02.560,1:38:06.320
the workplace

1:38:03.440,1:38:06.719
and um skills and opportunity are the

1:38:06.320,1:38:09.520
way

1:38:06.719,1:38:10.480
to do that and the sectors you just

1:38:09.520,1:38:12.400
talked about

1:38:10.480,1:38:14.159
particularly the health sector are

1:38:12.400,1:38:17.040
clearly going to be one of the growing

1:38:14.159,1:38:20.080
sectors of the economy so it's about

1:38:17.040,1:38:23.280
i think in in the end to us

1:38:20.080,1:38:25.600
all roads lead back to skills training

1:38:23.280,1:38:28.960
and education and that's that's that's

1:38:25.600,1:38:30.960
where the opportunities will arise

1:38:28.960,1:38:32.320
thanks inners so picking up on that

1:38:30.960,1:38:33.760
thing i've got a question here from

1:38:32.320,1:38:35.119
melissa harvey

1:38:33.760,1:38:37.360
and perhaps i'll put this one to you

1:38:35.119,1:38:38.880
sally uh how should we balance the

1:38:37.360,1:38:41.280
desire for productivity

1:38:38.880,1:38:42.560
and say technological development to

1:38:41.280,1:38:44.320
drive productivity

1:38:42.560,1:38:46.880
with the challenge of associated job

1:38:44.320,1:38:47.760
loss or an inability for some workers to

1:38:46.880,1:38:52.239
upskill or

1:38:47.760,1:38:55.199
diversify all right um

1:38:52.239,1:38:56.800
there should be some um fair sharing of

1:38:55.199,1:38:59.840
productivity gains

1:38:56.800,1:39:02.639
first of all people will much more

1:38:59.840,1:39:03.840
want to engage in the productivity

1:39:02.639,1:39:06.159
discussion

1:39:03.840,1:39:08.159
uh if that's the case and it hasn't been

1:39:06.159,1:39:09.760
the case for quite a while and from the

1:39:08.159,1:39:13.040
perspective of

1:39:09.760,1:39:15.520
of workers obviously talking to a lot of

1:39:13.040,1:39:17.920
them and representing them

1:39:15.520,1:39:20.239
this particular term productivity can be

1:39:17.920,1:39:22.159
a dirty word and so

1:39:20.239,1:39:24.400
it inhibits sometimes the discussions

1:39:22.159,1:39:26.400
that need to be had around

1:39:24.400,1:39:27.760
changes that may be inevitable in terms

1:39:26.400,1:39:30.239
of technological change

1:39:27.760,1:39:31.840
um changes that need discussions at

1:39:30.239,1:39:33.840
workplaces and that

1:39:31.840,1:39:35.280
if that that happens in a mature way

1:39:33.840,1:39:36.880
there's an ability to

1:39:35.280,1:39:39.600
look at how you would go about

1:39:36.880,1:39:43.040
upskilling and differently skilling

1:39:39.600,1:39:45.440
people so i might leave it at that

1:39:43.040,1:39:46.400
thanks ellie i've got a question here

1:39:45.440,1:39:47.840
from kate

1:39:46.400,1:39:49.440
and perhaps i'll put this one to

1:39:47.840,1:39:51.280
jennifer

1:39:49.440,1:39:53.679
there's been a lot of discussion tonight

1:39:51.280,1:39:55.119
about working from home and impacts on

1:39:53.679,1:39:57.440
employees mental health

1:39:55.119,1:39:58.800
and personal life i wonder also about

1:39:57.440,1:40:01.040
the readiness of business

1:39:58.800,1:40:02.320
to manage productivity and effectiveness

1:40:01.040,1:40:04.159
of their workforce

1:40:02.320,1:40:06.000
what are your key concerns and barriers

1:40:04.159,1:40:08.480
when it comes to business leaders

1:40:06.000,1:40:09.760
and organisational readiness and i guess

1:40:08.480,1:40:10.960
that's particularly in the context of

1:40:09.760,1:40:14.400
working from home

1:40:10.960,1:40:15.119
sure um look i think i think to david's

1:40:14.400,1:40:17.760
point

1:40:15.119,1:40:20.000
i think there's a real mixed view about

1:40:17.760,1:40:22.320
working from home

1:40:20.000,1:40:23.199
i think particularly the longer this has

1:40:22.320,1:40:25.679
gone on i think

1:40:23.199,1:40:27.440
all of the structural problems of

1:40:25.679,1:40:30.320
working from home have started to

1:40:27.440,1:40:31.360
become clear i mean it's it's we've got

1:40:30.320,1:40:34.719
to make sure

1:40:31.360,1:40:36.320
that uh we're very careful about

1:40:34.719,1:40:38.960
sort of making these huge assumptions

1:40:36.320,1:40:40.560
that everyone now will work from home

1:40:38.960,1:40:42.000
and that it's good for everyone for work

1:40:40.560,1:40:44.719
from home it's simply not the case i

1:40:42.000,1:40:48.159
mean care workers can't work from home

1:40:44.719,1:40:49.679
supermarket teams can't work from home

1:40:48.159,1:40:52.000
and we don't want to create this

1:40:49.679,1:40:53.440
bifurcated society of the people who

1:40:52.000,1:40:54.719
kind of have a really good working from

1:40:53.440,1:40:56.719
home and the people who have a really

1:40:54.719,1:40:58.239
bad working from home and so we need to

1:40:56.719,1:41:00.719
factor it into our

1:40:58.239,1:41:03.040
workplace system we need to factor it

1:41:00.719,1:41:05.119
into our discrimination laws

1:41:03.040,1:41:06.400
we need to make sure that people working

1:41:05.119,1:41:09.360
from home are safe

1:41:06.400,1:41:09.760
that it's a choice that it's something

1:41:09.360,1:41:13.520
that

1:41:09.760,1:41:15.679
they can grow and gain from and

1:41:13.520,1:41:17.679
but but we've also got to make sure that

1:41:15.679,1:41:19.360
we put a bit of a gender lens to this as

1:41:17.679,1:41:22.080
well what i don't want to see

1:41:19.360,1:41:23.520
in a so-called post-covet environment is

1:41:22.080,1:41:24.880
that women are still working from home

1:41:23.520,1:41:25.760
because we haven't fixed the child care

1:41:24.880,1:41:27.520
system

1:41:25.760,1:41:29.040
women are still working from home and

1:41:27.520,1:41:31.520
that's denying them opportunities for

1:41:29.040,1:41:34.560
promotion and advancement because

1:41:31.520,1:41:35.520
we haven't sorted out who's working from

1:41:34.560,1:41:38.000
home and why

1:41:35.520,1:41:39.600
so i think it's a really important

1:41:38.000,1:41:42.320
structural issue

1:41:39.600,1:41:43.520
that we shouldn't sort of say oh well we

1:41:42.320,1:41:45.360
don't need to worry about it everyone

1:41:43.520,1:41:48.159
returned to work i think a lot of people

1:41:45.360,1:41:49.119
will make working from home either part

1:41:48.159,1:41:51.199
of their

1:41:49.119,1:41:52.880
working week or a big part of their

1:41:51.199,1:41:54.560
working lives

1:41:52.880,1:41:56.000
we've got to make sure that we start to

1:41:54.560,1:41:59.040
put a

1:41:56.000,1:42:03.199
gender equity a safety

1:41:59.040,1:42:05.520
and a inequality lens on working from

1:42:03.199,1:42:05.520
home

1:42:06.080,1:42:10.080
thank you we're getting a lot of

1:42:07.600,1:42:12.719
questions now about our skills

1:42:10.080,1:42:14.320
that uh particularly talked about so i'm

1:42:12.719,1:42:14.960
just going to raise two here and perhaps

1:42:14.320,1:42:17.840
we could hear

1:42:14.960,1:42:19.280
from both uh innis and jennifer about

1:42:17.840,1:42:22.480
this if you've got thoughts on this

1:42:19.280,1:42:24.080
so uh firstly mary kirella asks not

1:42:22.480,1:42:25.760
everyone can be up skilled

1:42:24.080,1:42:27.440
how do we care for those who still need

1:42:25.760,1:42:29.679
to participate in the workforce

1:42:27.440,1:42:30.480
but don't have great skills and

1:42:29.679,1:42:33.119
relatedly

1:42:30.480,1:42:34.880
monica rose asks there's agreement that

1:42:33.119,1:42:37.280
upskilling reskilling workers is one of

1:42:34.880,1:42:39.600
the ways to build better

1:42:37.280,1:42:42.080
should an entitlement be introduced into

1:42:39.600,1:42:45.440
the ir sphere to fund and resource

1:42:42.080,1:42:45.440
these upskilling processes

1:42:45.920,1:42:49.040
told me to go first or do you want to go

1:42:47.520,1:42:50.960
first yeah that'd be great

1:42:49.040,1:42:52.320
you got in first i was unmuting so you

1:42:50.960,1:42:56.960
go first jenna

1:42:52.320,1:42:58.800
um perhaps um on the kind of question

1:42:56.960,1:43:00.880
that some people can't be upskilled i'm

1:42:58.800,1:43:02.960
not sure i think one of the things we've

1:43:00.880,1:43:04.719
really taken our eye off as a country is

1:43:02.960,1:43:06.480
foundation skills i mean we still have

1:43:04.719,1:43:07.760
many people with very poor literacy

1:43:06.480,1:43:10.239
levels

1:43:07.760,1:43:11.920
very poor foundation skills and we've

1:43:10.239,1:43:15.040
really dropped the ball on that i

1:43:11.920,1:43:17.119
i think that's an area where uh

1:43:15.040,1:43:18.880
you know we've got to get a better focus

1:43:17.119,1:43:21.840
to make sure that people can

1:43:18.880,1:43:23.760
work re-enter the workforce and and

1:43:21.840,1:43:26.000
participate fully

1:43:23.760,1:43:27.920
and of course you know we acknowledge

1:43:26.000,1:43:29.760
that um

1:43:27.920,1:43:31.840
you know that's requires investment from

1:43:29.760,1:43:33.040
governments but i i am still really

1:43:31.840,1:43:34.800
alarmed and innocent i think you did

1:43:33.040,1:43:36.000
some analysis on this a few years ago at

1:43:34.800,1:43:38.159
the level of

1:43:36.000,1:43:40.080
of really basic literacy that still does

1:43:38.159,1:43:41.360
not exist in many workers

1:43:40.080,1:43:43.760
james just remind me what the second

1:43:41.360,1:43:47.040
question was again

1:43:43.760,1:43:48.560
yes sure so monica rose asks there is

1:43:47.040,1:43:49.920
agreement that upskilling reskilling

1:43:48.560,1:43:50.480
workers is one of the ways to build

1:43:49.920,1:43:52.239
better

1:43:50.480,1:43:54.159
should an entitlement be introduced into

1:43:52.239,1:43:55.920
the issue we proposed

1:43:54.159,1:43:57.199
a while ago this idea of a lifelong

1:43:55.920,1:43:59.520
skills account

1:43:57.199,1:44:01.600
uh that that that people would have and

1:43:59.520,1:44:01.840
that would be made up of a subsidy and

1:44:01.600,1:44:03.679
an

1:44:01.840,1:44:04.960
income contingent loan and i think we've

1:44:03.679,1:44:06.159
got to think our way through that

1:44:04.960,1:44:08.880
because

1:44:06.159,1:44:10.800
and of course an employer contribution

1:44:08.880,1:44:12.880
would be part of that as well but i do

1:44:10.800,1:44:14.560
think we have to find a way of

1:44:12.880,1:44:16.159
making sure that we can fund that

1:44:14.560,1:44:17.760
upskilling and that we can fund that in

1:44:16.159,1:44:18.960
an equitable way

1:44:17.760,1:44:20.639
and that's going to be based on the

1:44:18.960,1:44:22.400
nature of the courses that people are

1:44:20.639,1:44:24.400
doing on the length of them

1:44:22.400,1:44:26.159
that's also about breaking down some of

1:44:24.400,1:44:27.679
our clunky skill system into sort of

1:44:26.159,1:44:30.480
more of these what people call micro

1:44:27.679,1:44:31.920
micro credentials but i do think we have

1:44:30.480,1:44:35.280
to make sure that people

1:44:31.920,1:44:35.920
can access the funding to retrain and

1:44:35.280,1:44:38.639
reskill

1:44:35.920,1:44:40.880
and that employers obviously will have

1:44:38.639,1:44:42.320
to make contributions to that as well

1:44:40.880,1:44:43.679
and that's a shared and collective

1:44:42.320,1:44:44.639
responsibility if we talk about

1:44:43.679,1:44:46.239
tripartite

1:44:44.639,1:44:48.639
this is an area where i just think

1:44:46.239,1:44:50.239
there's probably so much common ground

1:44:48.639,1:44:52.320
uh we really need to kind of get

1:44:50.239,1:44:54.159
cracking with it between business unions

1:44:52.320,1:44:56.560
and government

1:44:54.159,1:44:57.840
just um jump in there james a couple of

1:44:56.560,1:45:00.960
things i think we're not

1:44:57.840,1:45:02.320
i i don't agree that some people can't

1:45:00.960,1:45:04.159
be skilled at the same time we're not

1:45:02.320,1:45:05.840
talking about everyone here being nasa

1:45:04.159,1:45:07.600
rocket scientists or anything like that

1:45:05.840,1:45:09.440
i think we need to get away from that

1:45:07.600,1:45:11.119
this is about gradual building of skills

1:45:09.440,1:45:12.639
i chair the migration council of

1:45:11.119,1:45:14.639
australia we do

1:45:12.639,1:45:16.480
enormous amount of work with migrant

1:45:14.639,1:45:18.000
community just to pick a community on

1:45:16.480,1:45:19.600
helping them through their skills and

1:45:18.000,1:45:21.040
for that a lot of that is english

1:45:19.600,1:45:23.520
language skills and

1:45:21.040,1:45:24.719
and training and the like uh and it's

1:45:23.520,1:45:28.639
across the whole gamut

1:45:24.719,1:45:31.840
yeah thanks dj yes i'm involved in too

1:45:28.639,1:45:31.840
so great

1:45:42.480,1:45:45.840
brief reports and certainly

1:45:46.239,1:45:50.960
uh with the other regions so far there

1:45:48.320,1:45:53.520
have been a lot of issues raised around

1:45:50.960,1:45:56.000
around the very positive um

1:45:53.520,1:45:58.400
responsibilities

1:45:56.000,1:46:00.080
in all of our duty stations and this has

1:45:58.400,1:46:01.360
been particularly pleasing to see and

1:46:00.080,1:46:06.320
i'm sure many of you

1:46:01.360,1:46:06.320
will got in

1:46:06.800,1:46:10.960
hopefully he's not about to give

1:46:08.320,1:46:13.840
something secret away but anyhow

1:46:10.960,1:46:15.520
um but i was just making the point that

1:46:13.840,1:46:16.880
we should look at skills as everyone

1:46:15.520,1:46:19.199
sort of being right at the

1:46:16.880,1:46:20.639
yeah what you might call a metaphorical

1:46:19.199,1:46:22.719
tree there are just different

1:46:20.639,1:46:24.639
ways of paths of building skills and i

1:46:22.719,1:46:28.000
think we need to be

1:46:24.639,1:46:30.159
open to that um the other

1:46:28.000,1:46:31.199
the other point is that we are in a you

1:46:30.159,1:46:34.639
know now in a

1:46:31.199,1:46:35.360
time of of a demand or a need for

1:46:34.639,1:46:38.159
lifelong

1:46:35.360,1:46:39.520
skills development and the and the old

1:46:38.159,1:46:41.119
story around how many

1:46:39.520,1:46:42.960
different jobs do someone have through

1:46:41.119,1:46:45.360
their career or how many careers does

1:46:42.960,1:46:47.840
someone have through their life

1:46:45.360,1:46:49.600
i think that's all real and realistic

1:46:47.840,1:46:51.920
now as people do

1:46:49.600,1:46:54.639
more and more move on and so they need

1:46:51.920,1:46:56.159
to adapt and change so in some ways

1:46:54.639,1:46:58.639
skills can be

1:46:56.159,1:47:00.000
as simple i'll use the word simple as

1:46:58.639,1:47:01.360
developing the skills around

1:47:00.000,1:47:04.239
adaptability

1:47:01.360,1:47:04.639
um it's you know it's it's just one

1:47:04.239,1:47:07.600
thing

1:47:04.639,1:47:08.000
to to to think of and then what goes

1:47:07.600,1:47:11.360
into that

1:47:08.000,1:47:12.560
those skills around curiosity um around

1:47:11.360,1:47:15.040
being able to

1:47:12.560,1:47:16.000
develop new skills is a skill within

1:47:15.040,1:47:18.239
itself so

1:47:16.000,1:47:19.679
i just think that more and more as i

1:47:18.239,1:47:21.280
talked about those sort of new collar

1:47:19.679,1:47:22.000
jobs that is going to be more and more

1:47:21.280,1:47:25.360
of what

1:47:22.000,1:47:28.239
employment demands going forward

1:47:25.360,1:47:30.159
names can i can i just make a comment on

1:47:28.239,1:47:33.199
skills

1:47:30.159,1:47:35.360
yes yep sorry just very quickly

1:47:33.199,1:47:36.560
i absolutely agree skills are critical

1:47:35.360,1:47:38.719
and skills development

1:47:36.560,1:47:40.800
lifelong learning nursing has very much

1:47:38.719,1:47:43.199
an approach to lifelong learning

1:47:40.800,1:47:45.199
and i agree with jennifer that there is

1:47:43.199,1:47:47.119
a big skills deficit across the aged

1:47:45.199,1:47:49.760
care system but there's also a very big

1:47:47.119,1:47:50.960
personnel deficit across the aged care

1:47:49.760,1:47:53.360
system

1:47:50.960,1:47:54.000
skills are critical but skills don't

1:47:53.360,1:47:56.000
matter much

1:47:54.000,1:47:58.000
if there aren't meaningful jobs to end

1:47:56.000,1:48:00.400
up in so when we look take

1:47:58.000,1:48:01.440
example of registered nurses we're

1:48:00.400,1:48:04.000
pretty good

1:48:01.440,1:48:06.000
at producing skilled registered nurses

1:48:04.000,1:48:07.600
we still have several hundred every year

1:48:06.000,1:48:08.320
that we're not getting into meaningful

1:48:07.600,1:48:09.920
jobs

1:48:08.320,1:48:11.199
we're not just losing those skills now

1:48:09.920,1:48:12.639
we're losing the skills for the next

1:48:11.199,1:48:13.760
five years potentially in the next 10

1:48:12.639,1:48:16.560
years so

1:48:13.760,1:48:18.400
all this focus on skills is not really

1:48:16.560,1:48:18.960
worth a lot unless we've also got a

1:48:18.400,1:48:21.119
focus

1:48:18.960,1:48:23.600
on meaningful jobs for those skills to

1:48:21.119,1:48:26.960
be used in

1:48:23.600,1:48:28.880
thanks so i i'll just give

1:48:26.960,1:48:30.159
anyone a chance to reply to that if they

1:48:28.880,1:48:33.040
wanted to yeah i

1:48:30.159,1:48:33.040
would crosstalk i'd

1:48:33.600,1:48:38.560
not so much in response to any but but

1:48:35.760,1:48:40.639
the general discussion about skills

1:48:38.560,1:48:41.760
the trouble is that as a society we've

1:48:40.639,1:48:43.920
moved away

1:48:41.760,1:48:45.679
from properly resourcing skills

1:48:43.920,1:48:47.520
development in the 80s

1:48:45.679,1:48:49.600
late 80s and early 90s there used to be

1:48:47.520,1:48:51.760
national training levees

1:48:49.600,1:48:53.199
one point something percent that was

1:48:51.760,1:48:55.920
paid on salaries

1:48:53.199,1:48:57.119
for and organizations had to spend it on

1:48:55.920,1:48:59.600
training and

1:48:57.119,1:49:00.480
we used to have a highly funded public

1:48:59.600,1:49:03.920
sector

1:49:00.480,1:49:05.040
tafe system um the training movie was

1:49:03.920,1:49:07.199
abolished

1:49:05.040,1:49:09.199
the tafe systems basically the public

1:49:07.199,1:49:12.320
sector stepped back from it

1:49:09.199,1:49:14.000
it's predominantly private uh providers

1:49:12.320,1:49:16.800
now and it's just not working

1:49:14.000,1:49:18.080
and we really need to think um not just

1:49:16.800,1:49:20.480
the sort of terms of

1:49:18.080,1:49:22.719
principles but also in terms of putting

1:49:20.480,1:49:26.320
the resources in putting the money into

1:49:22.719,1:49:26.320
making skills development happen

1:49:26.880,1:49:32.800
thank about that i totally agree

1:49:30.400,1:49:33.520
i've been banging on about it for years

1:49:32.800,1:49:36.880
we've gotta

1:49:33.520,1:49:38.320
you know restore the funding that that

1:49:36.880,1:49:40.000
you know particularly intake and i agree

1:49:38.320,1:49:41.679
with annie about a meaningful job that's

1:49:40.000,1:49:43.360
why i'm saying i think you know

1:49:41.679,1:49:45.520
one area that we should really all

1:49:43.360,1:49:47.119
double down on is the care sector

1:49:45.520,1:49:48.639
so that people do have rewarding

1:49:47.119,1:49:51.440
meaningful jobs

1:49:48.639,1:49:53.520
and make sure that that people have

1:49:51.440,1:49:54.480
career advancement in those jobs in a

1:49:53.520,1:49:56.719
sense of

1:49:54.480,1:49:58.560
accomplishment advancement and and of

1:49:56.719,1:50:00.320
course you know looking at

1:49:58.560,1:50:03.440
the pain conditions that would be a kind

1:50:00.320,1:50:03.440
of basic level as well

1:50:04.880,1:50:08.400
thank you anyone like to make any final

1:50:06.719,1:50:11.599
comments before we cross over to

1:50:08.400,1:50:13.199
ron for his reflections

1:50:11.599,1:50:14.800
all right thank you very much for your

1:50:13.199,1:50:16.880
participation to all the speakers

1:50:14.800,1:50:18.159
gonna cross over to ron to give his

1:50:16.880,1:50:20.320
reflections on the debate

1:50:18.159,1:50:23.119
over to you ron thank you very much

1:50:20.320,1:50:28.159
james and thank you to the debaters for

1:50:23.119,1:50:31.119
a thought-provoking hour and a quarter

1:50:28.159,1:50:33.199
what is surprising to me and historians

1:50:31.119,1:50:36.400
will find surprising

1:50:33.199,1:50:38.800
is that we did have tripartite

1:50:36.400,1:50:42.159
consultations between employers

1:50:38.800,1:50:45.920
trade unions and governments

1:50:42.159,1:50:48.320
last year it was fights between

1:50:45.920,1:50:51.679
governments and trade unions

1:50:48.320,1:50:52.080
it was to them and us from the hayden

1:50:51.679,1:50:58.080
royal

1:50:52.080,1:51:01.199
commission to a bad union behaviour bill

1:50:58.080,1:51:03.199
and now we've seen a credit must go to

1:51:01.199,1:51:04.400
attorney general and minister for labour

1:51:03.199,1:51:07.440
porter

1:51:04.400,1:51:09.840
for having tripartite discussions

1:51:07.440,1:51:11.040
the trade union movement is not as

1:51:09.840,1:51:13.440
powerful as it was

1:51:11.040,1:51:14.719
in the 80s with the hawk productivity

1:51:13.440,1:51:17.679
reforms

1:51:14.719,1:51:19.920
is it about 15 of the workforce there

1:51:17.679,1:51:21.280
are large sways of the private sector in

1:51:19.920,1:51:23.199
the service economy

1:51:21.280,1:51:25.679
where there aren't or very few union

1:51:23.199,1:51:26.880
members and i think a great deal of

1:51:25.679,1:51:30.480
credit

1:51:26.880,1:51:33.520
must go to sally mcmanus

1:51:30.480,1:51:36.639
i think her skills as a leader

1:51:33.520,1:51:39.280
have come to the fore and i

1:51:36.639,1:51:40.080
also give applauded to the employers

1:51:39.280,1:51:43.040
here

1:51:40.080,1:51:45.040
but i think for the union movement to

1:51:43.040,1:51:46.320
pivot and get involved

1:51:45.040,1:51:47.440
there must have been thoughts in the

1:51:46.320,1:51:49.040
government that perhaps we could

1:51:47.440,1:51:50.000
legislate this through we'd get it

1:51:49.040,1:51:51.840
through the senate

1:51:50.000,1:51:53.920
i'm sure that's what many backbenchers

1:51:51.840,1:51:57.440
thought let's hope we can

1:51:53.920,1:52:00.800
build upon these tripartite discussions

1:51:57.440,1:52:02.560
and get some real reform

1:52:00.800,1:52:03.840
i think it's also clear from the

1:52:02.560,1:52:05.920
pandemic that

1:52:03.840,1:52:07.599
the idea that markets will always

1:52:05.920,1:52:10.800
provide solutions

1:52:07.599,1:52:11.920
is no longer full currency yes markets

1:52:10.800,1:52:14.159
are important

1:52:11.920,1:52:16.239
but i think we're going to see from the

1:52:14.159,1:52:19.119
aged care royal commission

1:52:16.239,1:52:20.320
that the private sector or for-profit

1:52:19.119,1:52:22.960
organizations

1:52:20.320,1:52:25.040
shouldn't be running this very important

1:52:22.960,1:52:26.320
area of our economy

1:52:25.040,1:52:28.080
i think there'll be a lot more

1:52:26.320,1:52:30.560
skepticism of markets

1:52:28.080,1:52:31.360
and we'll have to rethink the roles we

1:52:30.560,1:52:34.880
have of

1:52:31.360,1:52:35.760
government we're also living with bad

1:52:34.880,1:52:38.159
decisions

1:52:35.760,1:52:39.760
if i can say with respect i think it was

1:52:38.159,1:52:42.639
very bad decision to end the car

1:52:39.760,1:52:43.280
industry in this country and now we've

1:52:42.639,1:52:46.960
had to

1:52:43.280,1:52:46.960
bring in some new manufacturing

1:52:47.880,1:52:53.119
globalization will not go away

1:52:50.960,1:52:55.520
but the pandemic has taught us that we

1:52:53.119,1:52:58.960
have to be more self-reliant

1:52:55.520,1:53:01.760
migration has slowed down to a trickle

1:52:58.960,1:53:03.520
and imports are a problem and that we

1:53:01.760,1:53:06.239
must think more carefully

1:53:03.520,1:53:08.400
about how we utilize manufacturing in

1:53:06.239,1:53:10.480
other industries

1:53:08.400,1:53:13.040
i found the discussions on working from

1:53:10.480,1:53:14.639
home interesting and and joel and reilly

1:53:13.040,1:53:19.040
and others made the points

1:53:14.639,1:53:20.960
that well not everybody can work at home

1:53:19.040,1:53:22.960
other people lost their jobs through no

1:53:20.960,1:53:24.560
fault of their own many many many

1:53:22.960,1:53:26.320
you would think that being an airline

1:53:24.560,1:53:28.239
pilot was a super job a couple of

1:53:26.320,1:53:30.639
hundred thousand a year and mush

1:53:28.239,1:53:32.880
they're all gone those of us that have

1:53:30.639,1:53:35.840
jobs and can work for home

1:53:32.880,1:53:36.719
are indeed fortunate we have to do

1:53:35.840,1:53:39.440
something

1:53:36.719,1:53:40.239
about casual employment i agree with

1:53:39.440,1:53:41.679
innis

1:53:40.239,1:53:43.920
that we need to have a clearer

1:53:41.679,1:53:44.880
definition but on the other hand if

1:53:43.920,1:53:47.920
we're going to use

1:53:44.880,1:53:49.520
casuals around the clock then we need to

1:53:47.920,1:53:51.920
think about sick leave

1:53:49.520,1:53:54.080
and annual leave for their safety and

1:53:51.920,1:53:56.159
the safety of the community

1:53:54.080,1:53:57.199
we also need to think about the gig

1:53:56.159,1:53:59.840
economy

1:53:57.199,1:54:01.360
and what we do with independent

1:53:59.840,1:54:04.639
contractors

1:54:01.360,1:54:06.560
doing delivery work we could have an

1:54:04.639,1:54:08.480
intermediate category of worker as

1:54:06.560,1:54:10.560
happens in some countries

1:54:08.480,1:54:12.080
but as as i think jennifer said we're a

1:54:10.560,1:54:14.320
very high wage country

1:54:12.080,1:54:16.320
which makes our maneuverability more

1:54:14.320,1:54:19.599
difficult

1:54:16.320,1:54:22.320
we also need to think about the poor

1:54:19.599,1:54:23.040
and should we be thinking about a basic

1:54:22.320,1:54:26.719
income

1:54:23.040,1:54:29.119
universal basic income and goodness me

1:54:26.719,1:54:30.000
if we want to help women and men moms

1:54:29.119,1:54:33.599
and dads

1:54:30.000,1:54:36.400
we need to do something about child care

1:54:33.599,1:54:37.920
i found the debate fascinating i'm

1:54:36.400,1:54:41.119
delighted by the

1:54:37.920,1:54:44.639
the good will and i want to thank

1:54:41.119,1:54:47.280
annie and sally and jennifer

1:54:44.639,1:54:49.840
and innis who i understand have all been

1:54:47.280,1:54:53.040
involved in these tripartite talks

1:54:49.840,1:54:56.159
which i think could lead i hope

1:54:53.040,1:54:59.199
to greater reforms and a more secure

1:54:56.159,1:55:00.000
industrial relations system again as i

1:54:59.199,1:55:01.760
said in my

1:55:00.000,1:55:04.000
opening remarks i can't predict the

1:55:01.760,1:55:06.239
future it's a siren song

1:55:04.000,1:55:08.080
to do that but there is much of the

1:55:06.239,1:55:11.040
future that's in our hands

1:55:08.080,1:55:12.880
and if we make sensible decisions and we

1:55:11.040,1:55:15.679
do not waste this time

1:55:12.880,1:55:16.960
we can have a firmer foundation just as

1:55:15.679,1:55:20.080
our ancestors

1:55:16.960,1:55:22.400
solved the strikes of the 1890s by a

1:55:20.080,1:55:24.639
conciliation and arbitration system

1:55:22.400,1:55:27.040
which was clearly fit for purpose for

1:55:24.639,1:55:29.360
the first two-thirds of last century

1:55:27.040,1:55:31.760
can i say it's a great honor i still

1:55:29.360,1:55:34.000
don't know why this debate has my name

1:55:31.760,1:55:36.239
but i'm delighted and honored to be part

1:55:34.000,1:55:39.280
of it thank you

1:55:36.239,1:55:40.880
thank you thanks ron and uh

1:55:39.280,1:55:42.239
i'll just hand over to michael harmer in

1:55:40.880,1:55:43.840
a second but i just wanted to answer one

1:55:42.239,1:55:46.080
question in the feed that

1:55:43.840,1:55:47.360
which which asks i will this be recorded

1:55:46.080,1:55:49.760
today and let you know that

1:55:47.360,1:55:50.400
yes this is being recorded and it will

1:55:49.760,1:55:52.719
be shown

1:55:50.400,1:55:54.320
on sky tv shortly and then we'll be

1:55:52.719,1:55:56.719
uploading it to our website

1:55:54.320,1:55:59.040
and we'll send everybody a link so over

1:55:56.719,1:56:01.599
to you michael harmer

1:55:59.040,1:56:03.119
thanks james it's the aim of the

1:56:01.599,1:56:03.599
australian institute of employment

1:56:03.119,1:56:05.920
rights

1:56:03.599,1:56:07.119
in fostering the annual ron mccollum

1:56:05.920,1:56:09.760
debate

1:56:07.119,1:56:11.760
to have the truth emerge from the clash

1:56:09.760,1:56:13.520
of differing opinions

1:56:11.760,1:56:16.000
and what a wonderful array of differing

1:56:13.520,1:56:17.840
opinions we've heard tonight

1:56:16.000,1:56:20.320
some of which you may have agreed many

1:56:17.840,1:56:22.239
with which no doubt you've disagreed

1:56:20.320,1:56:24.480
but all of which warrant your respect

1:56:22.239,1:56:26.480
for they all serve to inform

1:56:24.480,1:56:28.320
just as to what may be the optimal

1:56:26.480,1:56:31.199
system of workplace relations

1:56:28.320,1:56:32.000
for this country and it's the search for

1:56:31.199,1:56:34.080
that truth

1:56:32.000,1:56:35.520
that is the foundation stone of the

1:56:34.080,1:56:36.960
australian institute of employment

1:56:35.520,1:56:39.599
rights

1:56:36.960,1:56:41.520
now in that context i'd like to thank

1:56:39.599,1:56:43.520
our illustrious

1:56:41.520,1:56:46.320
and esteemed set of panelists tonight

1:56:43.520,1:56:49.040
for their different perspectives

1:56:46.320,1:56:49.679
i'd like to thank justice ian ross for

1:56:49.040,1:56:52.080
his

1:56:49.679,1:56:53.520
brilliant moderation of the debate most

1:56:52.080,1:56:56.080
insightful

1:56:53.520,1:56:56.719
greg vines for bringing to us tonight a

1:56:56.080,1:56:58.880
truly

1:56:56.719,1:57:00.239
global perspective which has been most

1:56:58.880,1:57:02.719
helpful

1:57:00.239,1:57:04.639
and of course the brand ron mccullum not

1:57:02.719,1:57:06.960
only for his comments

1:57:04.639,1:57:09.440
but as he just indicated for allowing us

1:57:06.960,1:57:11.599
to name this debate in his honour

1:57:09.440,1:57:12.960
when as you were very much again

1:57:11.599,1:57:16.320
observed tonight

1:57:12.960,1:57:18.560
he is not in fact dead yet uh in fact he

1:57:16.320,1:57:19.520
continues as a bit of a living legend in

1:57:18.560,1:57:21.599
our space

1:57:19.520,1:57:23.520
and he inspires us a great deal and

1:57:21.599,1:57:25.440
thanks so much for that ron

1:57:23.520,1:57:26.960
could i also thank the members of the

1:57:25.440,1:57:29.520
air executive

1:57:26.960,1:57:30.320
particularly james fleming our executive

1:57:29.520,1:57:33.760
director

1:57:30.320,1:57:35.520
jane douglas mark perriger keith harvey

1:57:33.760,1:57:37.040
could i thank red back connect for

1:57:35.520,1:57:40.080
handling the technological

1:57:37.040,1:57:42.960
foundation for tonight's debate

1:57:40.080,1:57:44.000
could i thank michaela nealon and ai

1:57:42.960,1:57:46.239
media

1:57:44.000,1:57:48.159
for helping us to caption tonight's

1:57:46.239,1:57:51.440
debate and to reach

1:57:48.159,1:57:53.119
a more diverse audience and i guarantee

1:57:51.440,1:57:56.320
we will continue to do that

1:57:53.119,1:57:57.440
for every debate going forward finally

1:57:56.320,1:58:00.560
could i thank all of you

1:57:57.440,1:58:02.320
for your participation and attendance in

1:58:00.560,1:58:05.119
the debate tonight

1:58:02.320,1:58:06.639
the pandemic has been extremely humbling

1:58:05.119,1:58:08.560
for all of us

1:58:06.639,1:58:11.040
hopefully with that in mind we can step

1:58:08.560,1:58:14.560
away from our traditional positions

1:58:11.040,1:58:16.800
look to the public interest and provide

1:58:14.560,1:58:18.960
a good way forward for the australian

1:58:16.800,1:58:21.360
economy and all its people

1:58:18.960,1:58:26.560
with that in mind thank you take care

1:58:21.360,1:58:26.560
and good night that's a wrap thanks